I didn't "give advise" I entered into discussion - you know, that thing that people do?

I never claimed to "not know anything" - I just don't consider myself a subject expert. I can still have my own thoughts, express them and discuss them with others. Just kinda makes sense.

I don't necessarily think that the AC I was responding to is any more knowledgeable than I on this subject matter (though they are sure they are, Dunning Kruger springs to mind). But not being a subject expert I'm not about to go making concrete claims to argue against them. But I have no issue with expressing what I think as just that, my thoughts.

I just don't get this "oh shut up, you're not an expert, you can't join in, go home little boy" attitude, it's arrogant supremacism nonsense.

If I stated that it's fact and I argued as such I would accept the arrogant attitude - but that's just not the case.

I am well aware of my lack of expert knowledge about economics but that does not mean that I know nothing and does not automatically mean that all my ideas are without basis.

Let's face it, is there any such thing as an expert in economics? For every following in one system there is an equal contrary following (for example Austrian vs Keynesian). So to argue any economics as fact or concrete is in my mind nonsense (how often are expert economists correct?). For the record I don't swallow much of Keynesian economics, but again I'm not a subject expert so I will only discuss my thoughts and not tout my views as the 'right' one. I'm open minded and like discussion, fuck anyone who says I can't participate because I'm not a self proclaimed expert.

I'd be a fool to disagree with you since I'm not overly knowledgeable in economics, I have but a passing interest only.

But I still have an suspicion that the recent (2003 - 2011) volatility/instability in gold is a symptom of market manipulation, QE, baseless currencies et al. Could it be that trust in cash and stocks have had some swings and a lot of speculation moved to gold causing its instability - this coupled with the belief that gold is a safer haven for one's wealth in these times of uncertainty has at least contributed to the instability of the gold price. If cash was backed by gold (ignoring other issues) would these same patterns have emerged? It's hard to guess at, there are so many variables and it's almost impossible to determine what are the causes and what are the symptoms.

Has the manipulation of currencies masked the real changes in our currencies vs gold?

This chart doesn't look too dissimilar to the gold chart: http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=food-price-index&months=120 - that is just a random chart, and I'm sure that for every chart I find that shows food going up, there will be one showing it going down - I think it all depends on what the author wanted to show.

I'm not saying that gold is stable. I question whether we can even tell - there's too many variables and too much manipulation in all markets to make any real sense of it all.

What an arrogant arse you are. I explicitly stated that I do not know, these are my thoughts and are posed in such a manner - FUD spreading? What a tosser! (post as your real name if you want to be such a tosser).

My dead arse works 12 hours a day 7 days a week - sorry I don't have time to educate my self on everything, I have different interests that take my time. I'm sure there's hundreds of things I'm more educated at than you - get off your arrogant dead arse and learn about them (Oh, did I mention you're an arrogant tosser?)

But according to you, I'm not allowed to involve myself in discussion if I'm not an expert! You're awesome!

Perhaps, what level of volatility is unacceptable? Is gold not more volatile now? (these are questions, not FUD) Oh and you're awesome!

Is that really true with fractional reserve banking? It seems there is still a limitless supply of cash using this method? (a question, not FUD).. Hey awesome! I never said manipulation was bad (I may or may not think that) I said it's easier to manipulate when its not backed.

Fuck you're the most arrogant person I've ever conversed with. Fuck you tosser. (AC fucking loser, grow some balls)

Can you fucking read? I expressed MANY times in my post that I am ignorant and taking guesses, that does not make me lazy, fuck I bet I work twice as hard as you, you fucking arrogant tosser!

No, you posted AC because you're a coward and fucking arrogant wanker that takes pleasure in insulting others at the first possible opportunity. Arrogant arse.

Get off your lazy arse and fix your fucked up attitude, tosser.

Excuse me if I'm just showing my ignorance but can we really determine what is changing in those graphs? Is it the value of the currencies to which it is measured against that changes or the value of the gold? There has been some serious money printing going on world wide which may explain the steady rise since 2003. I would speculate that the significant bullish trend in gold is a symptom of currency not being backed by something akin to a gold standard - the effect of 'Quantitative Easing' and speculation of more QE. Its fall since 2011 can be attributed to the speculation that more QE is not likely.

If I was to chart gold against silver it will tell a different story than charting it against xx$ (xx = pick any major currency). If our currencies were backed by a gold standard would these graphs tell a different story yet again? I think it would.

Again, I'm no economist and I'm just taking guesses, but if cash was backed by gold would it not decrease the need to speculate and trade against gold and aid in its 'apparent' stabilisation since there would be no benefit of gold over cash?

As far as I can see the gold standard was dumped due mostly to governments being in so much debt that they could never honour their debt obligations with gold. Also, it's harder for a government to manipulate a currency backed by gold (less control).

I'm not convinced that the gold standard was a bad thing - it had its problems, but I think having a baseless currency is far worse and unsustainable.

They were a disaster how? The inability to manipulate their currencies? I don't think there is any global conspiracy - but if you're going to trade with countries that do not use a proper standard (eg gold) then you're putting your self in serious disadvantage with regard to trade and currency manipulation. They basically had no choice once the US decided to do so.

Huh? What a load of nonsense. Are you claiming that Apple would not be profitable if they offered a longer warranty period? If so, your perception needs some adjustment.

LM = timestamp of the last preferences change..

I know if someone owed me $3B, I'd be getting on top of that right away.

How could any entity allow any valid debit to escalate to such a large amount before calling it in?

Doesn't sound right to me...

Pffft, this will never take off..

But also consider - you have more influence over what the front of your car hits, you have less influence over what hits you from behind (especially when stationary).

So it may not be correct to automatically conclude that having a fuel tank in the rear is the safer option.

I'm not claiming that it's not safer, but I personally trust myself not to collide with an object in front of me rather than some other fool slamming into my car from behind (or the from any direction in for that matter)....

Likewise, I like all discussion :)

I think my point is somewhat different than "a CD is a bunch of numbers" and I agree that is not particularly useful.

Numbers are in themselves not math or an algorithm and therefore I would not claim that the data on a CD is math - it's not, it's an analogue of an analogue signal (I think that's right?)

The bunch of numbers on a CD is not an algorithm - they are the input to the algorithm - the software that reads those numbers and makes it into sound is the math/algorithm. The numbers are useless without the math to make them 'alive' again.

I've also emailed your wife to let her know you think she's a pile of hydrogen and oxygen - not very flattering...

So what? Who cares if the difference between Mac and FreeBSD is due to art and design? That has NO baring of what the 'thing' is...

Oh, semantics... Yes the end user buys the product, but the product is also the software (the end result), it's the 'thing' we're discussing..

I don't think you have any interest in understanding my point, you are ignoring any points I make that are relevant to the discussion and instead bring in this philosophical 'Steve Jobs' blather...

This is going no where, you think software is 95% art - your definition of what a product is seems to be where the effort was spent. This makes no sense in the context of this discussion and is NOT what I am discussing.

I'll be clear - I am not referring to effort. I am referring to what the thing 'is'... You can't seem to grasp that.

I think you are completely missing my point.

I am not saying and will never say that programmers are performing mathematical analysis and implementation when writing code (obviously this is the case some times). I am saying that the PRODUCT is math, not the thought process that goes into it.

And I agree that UI design is art. But that doesn't change a thing - the end result is a bunch of algorithms and art. The effort is art, the product is mostly math/algorithms.

Just because the programmer did not explicitly 'do the math' does not mean it's not there or is not relevant. Remember the context in which this discussion started..

Absolutely, I'm no conspiracy theorist. I just agreed that the source code is not the only vector for injecting backdoors.

Please vote this up..

Indeed, the vectors for adding back doors is not as simple as looking at source code.

No probs - just though an insult was a bit childish - but hey these things get missed in these forms..

Do you agree or disagree with the parent post? There are fundamental differences between the different examples you gave vs software?