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Comment Re:Do as they do in job references (Score 1) 424

Not because they would lose a lawsuit but want to avoid one in the first place.

I get that... but when you get down to it, really, absolutely *anything* that they say other than "this employee was a good worker", especially if person calling about the reference actually asks a specific question pertaining to that, and the former employer provides what is essentially a non-sequitur answer that clearly reeks of wanting to avoid a lawsuit, which could certainly end up causing the person to not get hired, so the ex-employee could still try to sue them for saying stuff about the former employee that may have finalized the decision with the prospective employer to not hire them. The former employer can be just as damned if they do say something bad as damned if they don't say something good. They won't lose a court case, but would they lose, in court, if the previous employer just said that the employee didn't fit in with their company culture, or some such thing? After all, the employee isn't likely to know exactly what they said about them before filing a lawsuit... at most they would know only that something that they said led to the person not getting hired.

Sure, anyone can file a lawsuit; but if you all you provide is factual information, such as dates of employment, there can be no defamation. When you go beyond that and start saying things that are open to interpretation then you get into trouble; so not saying anything about performance is the safe course.

Comment Re:Do as they do in job references (Score 1) 424

if it is corporate policy not to say anything beyond verifying dates of employment and possibly other facts such as title and last salary.

But that's not what you said. You said "We can only say positive things about the employee. I will therefore remain silent."

This is very different from "Our policy says that we cannot give any review of any employee's service"

While it may be difficult to get the new employer to say why they didn't hire you, there are plenty that will admit that it happened at the reference check.

I never said I would say "We can only say positive things about the employee. I will therefore remain silent." Those are your words. II only indicated I would follow my employer's guidelines, which would be to refer them to HR for verification of employment. In cases where it was somebody who was a good employee and left for a better opportunity, when asked for a reference I've worked out an agreement on what would be said and ask they use my personal, not work, contact information.

Even if the prospective employer said it was a reference check that cost them a job that does not prove it was your statement that caused it and even if it was since ethe information provided, dates of employment, was factual it's not defamatory.

Comment Re:Do as they do in job references (Score 1) 424

If you can intentionally convey a message, it can be taken that way, and be used in court that way. A jury would certainly agree that it was meant as a negative review.

On what grounds would you sue? You have neither slandered no libeled the employee since you have said nothing; and proving you said nothing as a way of conveying a negative message would be high bar to cross, especially if it is corporate policy not to say anything beyond verifying dates of employment and possibly other facts such as title and last salary. In any case silence is not knowingly and / or maliciously making a false statement about someone, despite how someone may perceive the silence.

To prove you defamed them they need to show you intentionally made negative statements that damaged their reputation and you knew those statements were false. Not saying anything does not meet that basic standard and a jury would be hard to convince that not saying anything about a person's performance met that standard.

Specifics may be difficult to nail down, but financial harm would be easy enough to prove. Even worse, this doesn't even have the benefit of using truth as an absolute defense.

That's the problem. If you can't nail down specifics to prove a statement (or silence) resulted in you not getting the job then you can't prove any harm. Couple that with the prospective employer is probably only going to say "we found a better candidate and hired them" without giving specifics so they avoid being sued as well and you can see why such a case is hard to win.

As for not being able to use the defense "it was a true statement" since you have made no statement their is no need to prove the truthfulness of what you said or didn't say.

Comment Re:Do as they do in job references (Score 1) 424

Realistically, if the employee was good I would say so, otherwise silence tells its own story.

And therein lies the problem. Silence then becomes a negative, and can open them up to a lawsuit.

On what grounds? You have not defamed or libeled the employee, and it would be hard to prove they didn't get the job because you didn't give a reference. Sure, you might find a lawyer to take the case but such a case seems beyond a long shot given how hard it is to win when they do give a bad reference.

More to the point, the very premise of providing a reference serves no purpose to the former employer, and is only done as a professional courtesy to the new employer. The status of the employee is meaningless to the old, so why risk a lawsuit when there is nothing to be gained?

Exactly, which is why many do not give meaningful references.

Comment Re:Do as they do in job references (Score 1) 424

Are there any explicit laws or precedents that indicate what specifically which data is safe for an employer to divulge that will not be considered incriminating to the character of the employee? I'd like references to them, if possible...

It varies by state to state depending on their laws and what recent court cases have decided so it's hard to say "this is safe / this is not" with any certainty. As an employment lawyer friend pointed out to me, employment law changes with every lawsuit so what was true yesterday may not be today. Thus, many companies prefer to err on the safe side. Not because they would lose a lawsuit but want to avoid one in the first place.

If a prospective employer of a former employee of yours calls and asks you what kind of worker they were and you retort with what is essentially a non-sequitur by saying that all you can give are the dates that they worked there, that's going to paint a pretty clear picture that if you say anything else about the employee, you feel like they might try and sue you, and that will still almost universally lead to them not hiring that person (employers tend to shy away from employees who might try and sue former employers for saying something that wasn't false).

Good point, although many may realize it's simply a way companies protect themselves and not be swayed by it. It's not just former employees that sue either. a company that hires someone could sue the previous employer if they gave a reference that resulted in hiring someone who turns out to cash etch same problems they did a previous job but the previous employer gave a good reference while aware of the issues.

Comment Re:Do as they do in job references (Score 1) 424

If they call asking for dates of employment, then they wouldn't need to talk to me at all, they *should* be talking to HR, who will have those records, and for that matter, I probably wouldn't be able to precisely confirm the dates anyways, even if I knew the individual personally. If my hands were really totally tied by HR like that with unsatisfactory employees, I'd probably default to directing any calls about such employees directly to HR, telling the caller that I apologize for any inconvenience, but I'm not readily able to answer any inquiries about that person that HR would not also be able to answer with at least as much expediency. We would, in such a case, be talking about a person that I never gave any kind of permission to for other employers to ask me questions about, after all. If an ex-employee asks me for a reference and I don't feel they were a good employee, I'll tell them that I'm not going to serve as a reference for them, and if anyone calls me about them, I'll direct their calls to HR. With HR tying my hands like that, if HR can't answer their questions, then neither can I anyways.

Pretty much the same for me. If they call asking for a reference all I can say is "I can verify dates of employment if you want." OTOH, if it is a good employee and they ask me for a reference I tell them to give them my private cell number. I then make it clear I am talking as an individual, not as a representative of my employer. Most understand why the difference because they deal with the same HR and Legal issues at they workplace.

Comment Typical /. headline that (Score 1) 435

focuses on one part of TFA and draws sensational conclusions. TFA points out the document is form a group in the FBI whose job it is to look at the impact of technology on crime. TFA points out potential good and bad outcomes. It seems to focus on the idea self driving cars “will have a high impact on transforming what both law enforcement and its adversaries can operationally do with a car.” Looking at the impact of technology is an important part of determining how to deal with it in the context of law enforcement; looking to the future and assessing what it may mean is the job of study groups such as prepared this report.

Comment Re:Do as they do in job references (Score 1) 424

The only reason I can think of that an employer would ever even be willing to talk to the HR department at all is either if the former employee actually personally worked in HR, or else if the person that was given as a reference no longer worked there.

True, but I was referring to the guidance we got from HR on how to respond to a reference check; not that they would actually talk to HR.

Comment Re:Freedom of Expression... (Score 1) 424

As a "former European" you should know how crazy it is to claim that Europe has some sort of common values. There are no "European values". There's a bunch of countries with different values who happens to be in a trade union together. It is only the politicians who have been lying about the EU and are trying to make it into United States of Europe who will claim we have a "united Europe" with the same values. Every single true European knows each country has it's own values.

Excellant point. I would add to it there is also a great variation in cultural norms within individual nations, and because of history this eliding near the border often share norms much more with each other than with others in the same nation but distant from them. It's really a different sort of variation than you see in the US as a result of different historical factors on how each nation evolved.

Comment Re:Do as they do in job references (Score 1) 424

If the law prevents him from saying anything bad, then certainly he could just say that the law prevents him from saying anything bad, and leave it at that.... The former boss hasn't said anything bad at all about the employee and has only expressed (completely truthfully) that the law in that jurisdiction prevents him from being able to do so, and advise the caller that they will have to form their own opinion.

Every HR department I have worked with said to only verify dates of employment. Anything else could result in a lawsuit; no matter how truthful. Realistically, if the employee was good I would say so, otherwise silence tells its own story.

Comment Not just Comcast (Score 2) 401

I cancelled XM a while back and the rep kept trying to get me to stay with various free offers. He kept asking "Don't you want free service for 2 months?" and English was clearly his 5th language because he failed to understand NO. I finally got him to cancel by asking for a supervisor since she couldn't seem to do a simple cancellation. I must have caught him when he was on the edge of losing a bonus. Had he simply said "Hey. Help me out. If you cancel I lose a bonus. How about hanging up and calling back" I would have don that. Wouldn't with Comcast because it takes 20 minutes and multiple phone trees to get to human.

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