I think those numbers in terms of calories and protein requirements (broscience or real science) are often directional, simply because we have different levels of activity with slight differences in metabolism. Even when people work out, one person may work out much more intensely than another.

So, the best solution is to play around with them until you're at a point that's best for you.

For me, I've been tracking my intake and dietary habits against my workouts and progress for over 7 years, and this is what I've found. I barely keep muscle mass at about .7-.8 gm/lb; I keep it and do well at 1-1.1 gm/lb; and I start putting more on at 1.2-1.4 gm/lb.

They are both full of starch and high in carbs. They are good supplemental foods when you need energy, but I wouldn't base my diet around either of those.

But really, it is cultural. In the US, most food is centered around pasta, pizza, and burgers. Sure, we eat our share of salads, Asian food, curry, and so on, but I'd imagine that the vast majority of our carbs (other than from fries, soda, and candy) probably come from pasta, pizza, and bread.

Telling people to buckle up and giving them the tools and knowledge to fight their addiction is not verbal abuse.

I still think my maths hold up and you selected very specific body-builder-favoured foods to 'disprove' the maths.

No, the healthy choices happened to be those that athletes and bodybuilders favor, that is all. That doesn't make them "bodybuilding" food anymore than a burger is "fat people" food.

(Come on. Egg whites? No ordinary person would even think of eating an egg like that.)

Ummm, I do not know where you live. I am guessing not the US, from your comments. But here in the US, you get liquid egg whites, prepackaged, just like milk. You can just pour them and make an omelette. Everything I posted (e.g. fat free cottage cheese, Greek yogurt) is easily available in grocery stores.

I'm not, FWIW, arguing that you should avoid those foods. They're certainly nutritious and fine for their purpose. Just that no ordinary person would suddenly have a light-bulb moment and start a diet with these foods, for the purposes of getting fit or losing weight.

Which is why I posted them - the problem is as much ignorance and need for education as it is unhealthy habits.

(You're certainly correct that people must mind their protein intake when embarking on a quest of losing weight and it's something the mainstream media never seems to mention. Just that the number you quoted is way too high. (Yeah. I'm repeating myself.))

The number only seems high because we're used to diets that are relatively unhealthy, and carb/fat rich. In my own personal experience, you need at least that much protein to keep up your muscle mass. And btw, I am not a bodybuilder. I am not even an athlete. I am just a regular guy who does rock climbing about once a week, and tries to hit the gym once or twice a week. I am not buff - while I am in shape, I am not bulky, and far from "jacked". Even my workout schedule is very minimal (i.e. twice a week most weeks; maybe 3-4 times during the holidays because I eat a lot). Despite that, I have found that if I do not eat adequate amounts of protein, my performance suffers. I lose muscle mass. I injure myself more. I lose both volume and density. By biceps turn into fatceps.

Getting in shape is not something that happens magically, and obviously any number I throw out there is directional. 1g/lb is the general consensus among amateur athletes and BBers - some do more, some do less. Ultimately, you need to figure out what works for you through trial and error.

Fixating on the actual number is silly because it takes away from the original point - i.e. do not try and lose weight; instead, try and lose fat while keeping muscle. And that requires eating adequate protein and weight lifting.

How is that cheating? I mean, I did mention in my original post (I am the OP, btw) that getting in shape is driven by diet. If you are serious about getting in shape, adequate protein is needed for recovery. Besides, there's a difference between fat loss and weight loss. Ideally, you want to lose your fat while keeping the muscle. And keeping (or building) the muscle entails working out and eating right, which requires you to consume adequate amounts of protein.

That means you have to be cognizant of what you consume, and translates into making smart dietary choices. Does it have to be the same every day? No. Do you need to be good every day? No. However, at least on a weekly basis, you should aim to consume at your calorie goals and ensuring that you're hitting your macros.

A lot of things (e.g. satiety) are driven by nutritionally suboptimal foods â" e.g. you eat a box of candies chips and you're still hungry, when some fat, protein, and hydration would have filled you up. And part of the problem is the easy availability of these nutritionally lacking foods.

People also equate certain processed foods with eating healthy, such as having a bottle of fruit juice as being the same as eating a fruit, which is not the case. The fiber and the satiety will mean that you will actually consume fewer calories while getting fiber with a fruit, while a juice is just liquid calories, mostly sugar. In the real world, if a bottle of apple juice contains four apples, you will rarely *eat* four apples. You will probably stop at one. But by drinking the juice, you're consuming more calories without the other nutritional benefits (e.g. no fiber).

Making sure that you eat adequate amounts of the right things, including fruits, nuts, and vegetables, will also mean that you're hitting the right nutrients â" protein, fiber, vitamins, omega 3s and so on.

And that actually entails making intelligent food choices. Some of those foods will definitely be boring (I mean, a grilled salmon salad over a pizza? steak tips over a hamburger? Oatmeal and eggs over potatoes and bacon?).

This is a great point. I have been tracking my calories on LiveStrong (and some people prefer My Fitness Pal or other similar websites) for several years now.

And I am always conservative in terms of my activity, and never subtract calories (i.e. oh, I ran for four miles today, let me eat extra calories). Given that the estimations for burned calories are exaggerated and the estimations for consumed calories are downplayed, that's a recipe for disaster.

Nope. Hitting the gym every day is a recipe for injury -- as with anything, your body needs to rest, recover, and actually "build" muscle.

Secondly, you can easily hit those numbers without any supplements.

Just choose your diet carefully (grilled salmon, grilled skinless chicken breast, oatmeal, egg whites, Greek yogurt, cottage cheese and so on). Obviously, this need not be the entirety of your diet, but building your diet around protein-rich sources gives you more flexibility in terms of how many calories you have left over to eat relatively unhealthy food (or, if you will, nutritionally less dense food).

As far as the protein requirements go, it may be broscience, but it is one that works. I am a rock climber -- I climb fairly regularly (at least once a week), and hit the gym at least once a week. However, I am never active more than 4 days a week. My most active weeks include two days of rock climbing and *maybe* two days of intense weight lifting. No more. And yet, I need a minimum of that level of protein to retain muscle mass. Otherwise, I see a deterioration in performance, in stamina, and a loss of volume.

I'm sorry, would you rather that I choose bags of Doritos instead?

I mean, of course I choose foods that are nutritionally rich. You may not realize this, but being healthy comes down to dietary choices (which was the point of my original post).

And btw, outside of the protein shake, none of what I'd mentioned is a "bodybuilder's" food. Hell, I can swap out the protein shake with three slices of pepperoni pizza at 900 calories and 40g of protein. And you'll land at 2000 calories for the day and 150g of protein.

You don't have to go kale all the way, but you certainly need to choose your foods carefully. You can't have every meal be unhealthy and wonder why you're not losing weight. Something's gotta give.

If you want that pepperoni pizza, you'd better have salads and egg whites as your meal the rest of the day.

I couldn't agree more. And now, while I think salads are delicious, I also think that Indian food, jambalaya, and fried chicken are equally delicious. My point wasn't that salads aren't delicious, but rather that they can get monotonous, and at some point, you do crave something that's unhealthy. And the reality is, you have to give in, otherwise you'll go stir crazy.

Re: water vs. soda, while everyone loves water, I prefer having something flavored to drink. Not all the time, but at least half the time, I prefer that my hydration is through something that's not water.

And actually, I have a preference for certain types of candy, and certain types of chips (and yes, Doritos). What can I say?

And I will say that after a good evening's rock climbing, my favorite thing to do is hit the local bar and get a coupe of large beers. It may be bitter, but I certainly love the way it tastes. And don't even get me started on gin and tonic.

But to your point, a lot of these things, including beer, could very well be cultural conditioning.

However, I think there's a difference between realizing that something unhealthy you enjoy is good in moderation versus rejecting it entirely. I eat a lot of things that are of questionable nutritional value -- I just don't make them my primary source of sustenance, and I certainly don't spit them up.

My personal philosophy is what I call IIFYM -- if it fits your macros. As long as the food I eat meets my macro nutritional requirements, I am happy (i.e. within my caloric limit, ideal ratio of protein:fat:carbs, not overtly rich in sodium etc). That means sometimes, I eat a pizza for breakfast and lunch, and dinner is greens and a protein shake. Other times, it means, I go out drinking with my buddies and fill up on beer and bar food, and make sure that the rest of my week is pretty good. I find that it's a lot more sustainable in the long run.

Your math is completely off.

A 4 oz. filet of grilled salmon has 25g protein and is 233 calories. A similar sized chicken breast (skinless) is also similar in nutritional value. Steak tips have slightly lower protein at about the same caloric value, let's say 20g.

Egg whites usually give you ~4g for 20 calories and scrambled eggs are at 100 calories with 7g of protein. A cup of low fat cottage cheese is usually around 200 calories and also gives you 25 grams of protein. A cup of Greek yogurt is at 120 calories, with 12g of protein.

Throw in two scoops of a whey shake at 24g for 120 calories.

Now let's do the math. Let's say you had two scrambled eggs for breakfast - that comes to 200 calories and 14g of protein. A greens salad with some dressing that's at ~100 calories and negligible protein with a grilled chicken breast or salmon. You have two Greek yogurts as your afternoon snack. And dinner is some steak, cottage cheese, and two scoops of whey.

Suddenly, you're at 156 grams of protein for the day, at a little over 1400 calories. If you're a 5'9 male at 155 lbs, you'll need ~2000 calories a day. That still leaves you with 600 calories to play around with -- a bag of chips, a cup of coffee, a banana, a muffin, and some grilled vegetables. Or hell, you can have a Big Mac *every day* at 550 calories (just stay away from the fries).

I hope you fall in a well.

But because of my increased endurance and strength, I will claw my way out of any well, alive and ready to spread my madness to this world.

I am tired of hearing this argument.

Getting in shape is not rocket science - all it takes is motivation, and persistence.

You think those of us who are fit enjoy eating salads? Do you really think I enjoy drinking water instead of soda? Or do you think we somehow magically like candy less than everyone else? We are still humans, and we crave the exact same things. A bag of Doritos and some beer look just as tempting to us as they look to you.

Getting in shape is almost entirely about dietary control. You even see it in the article, where the guy says that his company got him a gym membership. No, the solution is not a gym membership -- it is good diet.

And at the end of the day, diet is much easier than working out.

There is a reason people say that six pack abs are made in the kitchen. Every time I've had a six pack, it's been entirely because my diet has been in check. And when overeat, it doesn't matter how much or how hard I work out -- you cannot outrun a shitty diet.

Besides,someone who eats healthy and does not work out is often in better shape than someone who eats junk and "works out" for half hour a day. Most of those people just use their momentum to do some crazy exercises with piss poor forms, and eat unhealthy crap afterwards because they've worked out (think middle aged man with flabby biceps and a beer gut trying to bench press, when he probably has 50% body fat).

The solution to getting in shape is fairly simple. As long as you're in a caloric deficit, get enough protein (~1g/lb of lean body mass), and engage your muscles (I prefer to lift + rock climb + row), then you will shed the fat.

At the end of the day, it comes down to simple math. You just need to burn more than you eat. And often, it's just a lot easier to not eat that bag of chips or only eat a salad for lunch and dinner than, say, run it off.

For instance, a bag of Lays kettle chips is ~200 calories and a regular size chocolate chip cookie is ~180 calories. A bowl of Cap'n Crunch with skim milk? 300 calories. Add some sugar to that, and just having these will put you over 600 calories. That's ONE hour of running at 6mph.

Instead, you can have some egg whites and oatmeal for lunch, two salads, and perhaps some baked lean meat or seafood for lunch and save yourself a whole lot of calories.

This whole culture of saying that something is too difficult because it's an addition is nonsense. Whatever happened good old fashioned responsibility and personal accountability?

Indeed. Slashdot has always discussed politics of import, and this is no different.

Not to mention, I consider this to be Slashdot maturing in terms of the type of topics that are discussed.

There are plenty of sites that discuss the "shiny new tech thingy" -- Slashdot ceased to be that site a long time ago. These days, I consider it to be a good mix of tech, business, and politics -- one whose readers offer up (mostly) intelligent opinions that I can relate to.

Ummm, the mirrors are to ensure that you have good form when you work out.

The goal of bodybuilding is indeed aesthetics, and they do not hide it. Their goal is not functional -- rather, their goal is the full development of every muscle on the body in a proportional manner.

And that does not mean it's easy, either. People often assume that that degree of muscular development is just "lifting weights" and that is the farthest from the truth. Bodybuilding entails making sure that you pretty much develop every visible muscle group, without any one group looking out of proportion than the other. For instance, my chest and calves are the hardest to build, and it takes me a lot of effort to ensure that they develop in proportion to the rest of my body, my shortcomings notwithstanding.

However, bodybuilders are far from the best examples of fitness simply because their whole bulk/cut regimen isn't healthy, not to mention the overabundance of supplements that they consume. But I cannot tell from your post if you're referring to all bodybuilders (including the professional ones) or to the popular perception of the gym rat bodybuilder.

But there is a part of your argument that I disagree with - while they body builders may not be as strong as they should be, given their muscular density, that is by design. They're still stronger than most people (I mean, if you're squatting over a thousand pounds, imagine crushing something with those legs).

They may have some shortcomings compared to others of a leaner makeup, and that is a function of what they focus on. As a rock climber, I am more agile but my mirror muscles will never get that big; but despite having great lung capacity, my lung capacity will never equal that of my wife's, who's a long distance swimmer. Similarly, despite being strong and flexible, I cannot dream of ever squatting anything over 350 lbs. Because at some level, you hit a very realistic limit that cannot be overcome without additional muscle mass.

Bodybuilders are extremely good at what they do - i.e. push their muscle development to the max. You cannot judge a fish by how high it can fly.