UK MSN drops Subscription Charges 83
geoff lane
writes "Recently in the UK there has been a very strong
move towards "free" ISPs. By doing deals with the telecom companies
which split the call charge income between the telecom and
ISP companies the ISPs can drop subscription charges. I've
heard it reported that as few as 10,000 signed up users can
move a small "free" ISP into a trading profit." I guess
I'm not surprised. Telcos are big, how long can it be before
they swallow the ISPs anyway? And how long before it here..."
Re:Deamon is nowhere near the largest (Score:1)
Free phone calls, no thanks! (Score:2)
I'm probably in the minority here. But let me give my reasons.
First, let's remember that the choice is not actually between free and charged calls. It's between a metered and a flat-rate service. Reducing the telcos profits is an entirely separate question, unrelated to the issue of "free" calls.
I would like to see a per-megabyte, rather than per-minute, charge for internet access. The advantages of this would be
1) It reduces demand to what people really want.
2) It provides an incentive for ISPs to increase their bandwidth up to what customers want to use, because being able to send more traffic immediately increases their revenue.
In my opinion, the main reason that the internet is so clogged up, especially on intercontinental links, is precisely because of unmetered access, so that 1) and 2) don't happen. People have no incentive to control their demand, and ISPs have little incentive to expand their links above what they can get away with.
By reducing the load on the network, everything would work more efficiently. Bandwidth would not need to grow as fast, and the network would be cheaper to build.
So I think the choice is between watching the clock, or a higher flat-rate charge. I prefer the clock. YMMV.
But what about... (Score:1)
+----------------------+
| GodEater |
Re:Free ISPs and how they work. (Score:1)
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It's DEMON not deamon, anyway what's your point? (Score:2)
Demon isn't free. It's ten quid (US$15) per month.
You get a static IP address and free fax-to-email but other than that, it ain't so hot anymore. If it wasn't for the fact that my email and website addresses are so ingrained on my friends and search engines' collective conciousnesses, I would have quit long ago.
If they go free, though... NICE.
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Demon v. freebies (Score:1)
A couple of companies in the UK have started up completely free services (i.e. free login, free call), based on targeted advertising. It'll be interesting to see how they survive.
Re:Americans and flat rate phone calls (Score:1)
(phone lines), by making you pay for what you use.
Certainly I never have any trouble with busy lines to my ISP or my ISP not having any modems free.
Charging on a time used basis does discourage the "I'll phone up my ISP and stay on-line all day. Even if I'm not using the connection." attitude.
Flat Rate (Score:1)
Here in Rochester NY, the phone system is moderately good. I don't pay extra for a 56K line, but then my connections fluctuate anywhere from 28.8 to 44K tops, depending on the phase of the moon...
Re:This is good. (Score:2)
in the UK we have to pay for ALL of our telephone calls...
The way this owrks is that 1/3 of that cost goes to the originating telco. 1/3 goes to BT for switching it between telcos and 1/3 goes to the terminating telco.
BT is for the majority of calls in the UK both the originating and terminating telco. So they get 100% of the call cost.
ISP's generally receive lots of calls without making any. This means that the receiving telco makes a nice profit on all of those calls. So this sort of profit sharing scheme means that the ISP can cut costs by getting some of that profit from the telco.
I don't know how it works in the states but I would guess that it's not the same.
Although Demon is owned by Scottish Telecom it has its own telco licence, so at a bit of investment (1/4 to 1/2 a million pounds) they can put in a C7 DMSU (telephone switch) and rake in 100% of the interconnect charge. i.e. get the final 1/3 all to themselves.
So technically nobody will be charged more for this, its already included on your phone bill.
Re:Free ISPs, no thanks (Score:1)
And why shouldn't I be responsible for what my children's friends do on a machine that I own. Being responsible for your children also means knowing who they hang out with and what they are doing.
Free ISPs, no thanks (Score:4)
As the call charges are exactly the thing that is funding the ISP side of the business there is plenty of interest (for the telecom operators) in maintaining the status quo.
I'm sure the majority of European Internet users would prefer to pay £10-£20 a month to an ISP and get free calls, rather than pay nothing to an ISP and pay for per minute access to a telecom operator.
See Campaign for Unmetered Telecommunications [unmetered.org.uk] for more info.
Re:Free ISP connection problems? (Score:2)
I still keep my for-pay ISP for downloads and a decent connection, but try and use my free-free ISP as much as I can.
perl -e 'print scalar reverse q(\)-:
Waterstones / Yahoo Service (Score:1)
Protocol: PPP
Phone: 0845 6091352
UserID: Yahoo
Password: Yahoo
DNS: 194.72.6.57
DNS: 194.73.82.242
IP Header Compression
Default Gateway
DHCP
That's it - nothing PC-specific there!
Cheers,
frivolous
Re:makes telcos rich (Score:1)
Regards, Ralph.
This is good. (Score:1)
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
How about *really* free (Score:2)
The connection is crap - awful in fact. Very slow on the US uplink, but fast enough for long irc sessions. And their modem ratio is 30:1 (increasing to 20:1 this weekend), but I haven't had too many problems connecting (never connects first time at 6pm, but always connects eventually).
However I don't really want to shout out how to get this service. People who know should probably keep it to themselves too - I'd hate for the service to get *worse*!!!
Drop me a line with a good grovelling line, and a great joke, and I'll tell you all the details. (PS: I'm connecting from Linux).
Matt.
perl -e 'print scalar reverse q(\)-:
Re:OK, here's how the future looks... (Score:1)
nothing over the 'Internet' as we now
understand it: encrypt and tunnel your heart
out.
But if I'm providing a service such as a
Doom server and I feel like charging for it,
or an enhanced fast packet switch-based
international telephone service, I'd like to
know exactly who you are.
So obviously that connection I was talking
about is authenticated (and, dare I say it,
even encrypted by default..).
Oh - and wouldn't you like your mother-in-law
in Australia to pay for that call you made to her
where she talked your leg off the whole time?
With my plan, she pays for every word!!!
Re:Free ISPs, no thanks (Score:2)
You could be almost anybody. The solution insist on CLID. There has been a lot of discussion about this sort of thing in industry bodies...
AFAIK this information is only used for logging purposes.
Threat to Dell and AOL? (Score:1)
However, I believe that most suppliers are not in the market simply to gain revenue from phone calls. Dixons, the electrical retailer who set up the most popular of these services "Freeserve", which has 1.5 million members compared to AOLs 750K, did so largely in response to worries that companies such as Dell, who sell direct to customers via the internet and phone, would erode the market share of their store based retail network. Most of the free ISP's direct users to there own portals, usually featuring heavy advertising. I would imagine that Tescos and MSN have a similar marketing strategy.
The company that stands to lose most from this in the UK is AOL, who continue to charge between 10 and 15 pounds to use their services. AOL has been experimenting with with free 0800 access to it's services and is lobbying for a reduction in local phone calls to help it compete. In a seperate trial, Surry based LocalTel are offering free internet access and free off peak calls if you sign up for telephone calls with them, although this is a limited service at present.
Now, if the UK could get cheap or free ISDN or Cable modem access sorted out.....
Re:What does a typical call cost? (Score:1)
A friend of mine pays £100 (about $160) a month just for calls to the Internet, he's not a particularly heavy user either.
It seriously sucks, believe me.
Costs are about a penny a minute off-peak, two pence a minute peak.
Re:Free ISP connection problems? (Score:1)
I've found my freeserve connection from Linux to be fairly reliable (i.e. first time connection every time) apart from a time last month when they seemed to change something which broke most peoples scripted logins - which I fixed by switching to PAP authentication (as suggested by several folks on the freeserve.help.unix NG).
I don't often get connected at over 44000kbps though (sometimes 45333).
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Re:Free ISPs, no thanks (Score:1)
The point is it's so easy to register for these services they are guaranteed to get misused by a lot of people.
Anyway onto what you say - you can't keep an eye on someone 24 hours a day and even so what about freedom? Unless you keep your computer under lock and key and know everything about your childrens friends, which is very unlikely. Anyway this is far too much off topic.
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Re:Free Linux ISP (Score:1)
"We don't support linux owing to the cost of training the support staff to a sufficient level to be able to deal with any users configuration."
By the time the support staff have been trained enough to deal with a hacked-about linux box, they've got enough knowledge to go and get jobs as sysadmins.. and who would want to stay in a tech support job then?
The systems team where I work generally answer newsgroup support queries that the tech support team can't answer: we do our best to get unix users ( we've had just about every type of unix at some point ) online, but we can't provide official support otherwise we'd never get time to do what we're supposed to be doing.. and none of us would want to work ( or go back to ) support anyway.
What does a typical call cost? (Score:1)
So, do you pay a per minute charge for all calls, or are certain calls considered "local" and are only charged a connection fee? And, suppose I'm calling an ISP located 10 miles away, how much does the call cost (per minute or per connection)?
If they did the same thing here in the states, I'd go bankrupt rather quickly.
Australia too! (Score:1)
Free ISPs and how they work. (Score:2)
Personally, I'd much rather pay a monthly rate, and have flat-rate local calls, or even better - ADSL
cheers,
Tim
European Telecom Boycott Day (Score:1)
Another poster mentioned the Campaign for unmetered telecommunications [unmetered.org.uk]
You should know that there are many similar groups in Europe asking for a flat rate and together they have organized the European Telecom Boycott Day on 6/6/1999. Visit http://www.telecom.eu.org [eu.org] and, please, support the boycott.
Deamon is nowhere near the largest (Score:1)
1. Freeserve (Planet Online/Energis)
2. AOL
3. Compuserve
4. Demon
Even if you don't include AOL/Compuserve as ISPs, then Demon are still less than 25% of the size of Freeserve.
I'm not in the ISP market now so haven't followed this further, but my gut feeling says that FS is bigger, AOL/Compuserve have shrunk a little, Demon will have lost customers but they take forever to kill old accounts so will still count them. One of the other freebies may have over taken possibly getting as high as #2, but FS will still be on top for now.
As for ownership:-
Freeserve - Planet - owned by Energis (telco)
Demon - owned by Scottish power/telecom
Tesco - effectively owned by BT
[various others] - effectively BT clickfree
Re:Telco's Have australia already (Score:1)
Re:Free ISPs, no thanks (Score:1)
Well, there are already ISPs in the UK who operate on this basis. But they're losing customers at the expense of the "free" (call charge only) ISPs. So it seems that the customers disagree with you.
Re:Deamon is owned by Scottish Telecom (Score:2)
Re:Deamon, Deamon who the FUCK is Deamon (Score:1)
o) Demon are the biggest independent ISP in the UK, with the staff who made it that way.
o) Demon get bought by a large corporation ( Scottish telecom )
o) Large corporation sets about corporatising Demon's work environment
o) Most of the technical staff object and leave
o) Demon hires contractors who don't really care about anything more than their next invoice.
o) Demon's service goes downhill.
This seem at all reasonable?
( I've never worked for Demon, BTW, just one of their competitors, but there's no secrets in this industry. Luckily we went through the cottage-to-corporate change some time back, and have since re-educated the new management
There's lots of advantages to being an ISP with telco licenses ( massively cheap bandwidth is one ) so maybe Demon will improve again: however if they can't attract staff ( and the damage has been done ) then they're going nowhere. Good ISP techies generally get that way with experience, and there aren't many of them..
Re:Americans and flat rate phone calls (Score:1)
But you don't know how happy every online user in Germany will be, if we would have flatrate phone calls. I would be really happy if I have to try twenty times until I can connect to my ISP and then I don't have to pay any time charges.
We had a flatrate two months ago. Yes, it's right, this ISP had MANY trouble with jammed phone lines, BUT firstly they were complete idiots and unable to configure their systems and secondly it was ONE ISP for nearly the WHOLE German online community. And I was really happy with it, it's a complete different way to surf the web. You don't have to open twenty different browser windows to get all the informations you want and then disconnect quick. You can stay online as long as you want and you're able to use all those fantastic possibilities the internet offers. (You can also use them if you have to pay on a time-charge basis, but you WILL not use them, because it's just too expensive.)
You have to know, here nearly nobody shops online, because you can save a LOT of money if you spend your time in real shops instead of the internet.
Okay, you're right, this post is the post of a totally frustrated and unhappy Internet User, beacuse his last phone bill was over 150 $, but that's the truth
Re:Free ISP connection problems? (Score:1)
Quite amazing really that they managed to roll it all out properly while subscribing 10,000 new customers every day.
Re:OK, here's how the future looks... (Score:1)
Hmmm, how do you define Internet packets? TCP/IP?
Well, Voice over IP works... so either they inspect all of my packets or they don't charge me properly.
Guess I'll start using an encrypted tunnel to a server somewhere that will break those packets out for me... Now what rate will they charge my encrypted IP packets at?
I can't see how you can regulate this one.
Either you play a flat monthly fee for such a service or you pay that for a basic service and pay extra for all those useless add ons...
Television and music... Hmmm, no I don't want to buy those services from you thank you.
Games... No thanks I have some of those already...
Phone calls... Well, that one sounds useful, how about I pay you per call...
Free ISP Connectivity Problems (Score:1)
On the other hand, it is worth mentioning that although most of these free ISPs are running as competition to the telcos, they actually run off modem pools maintained by people like British Telecom (the largest UK telco and previously the monopoly organisation).
Profit is still profit for telcos, although if you ask any of them, I think they would prefer to have the users on a chargeable per month service and phone calls, as opposed to a free service and phone calls run by their competitors. It's a fine line that these chaps run because too many customers equals closer scrutiny by governing bodies. Strange old world. Still - love your permanent connection and ignore dialups!
Re: statistics out of kilter? (Score:1)
Telco's Have australia already (Score:3)
Having said that, there are many many medium sized ISPs in Australia, but they are unable to compete for the simple reason that if they were competitive, Telstra wuold find a way to tighten the stranglehold on the market, and essentially make the business unprofitable.
Free Internet is very much in its infancy here, but while the telecommunications giant owns the routers, gateways, exchanges and phone lines, I simply cant see Free internet taking off in australia, no matter how many subscribers an ISP obtains
Re:Free ISPs, no thanks (Score:1)
DID YOU KNOW....?
In the UK we have a caller ID system where your phone number is transmitted to the receiving phone unless you explicitly block it with 141 before dialing the number or ask for it to be permanently blocked by the telco.
However some free ISPs insist that you have caller ID disabled and won't let you log in unless you disclose your phone number to them. They say it's for security but perhaps it could be telemarketing or whatever. I'm not really worried but I know some people who will be so I thought I'd let you know.
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Re:What does a typical call cost? (Score:1)
In the UK we pay per minute for all calls including local calls. The cost for local calls off peak (i.e. after 6pm or so) is around 1.5p per minute, dropping to 1p per minute at the weekend. Most, if not all ISPs provide a local point of presence number.
As a further digression, I believe (although I'm not sure) that within the City of Hull, most calls are handled by a separate telco which does follow the US model of charging a flat rate connection fee for local calls.
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Re:US Get free phone calls anyway.. (Score:1)
Capitalist Curveball (Score:2)
I've tried Callnet [callnetuk.com] and found the service to be reliably unreliable (in the interests of fairness I should add that I've found at least one paying service - u-net [u-net.net] - to be equally bad), but I'm always slightly amused every time the line gutters and the little xmessage I've patched into ppp-off tells me that 'Your modem connection has been lost.' Why? Because these guys are the first people in the history of capitalism to make money deliberately and directly by providing a bad service. The worse the service, the more support calls they get, and thus the greater their revenue stream. They only have to bring the service down for a couple of seconds and their little callcenters go ballistic and the real money - the value-added goldmine, the support cashcow - starts rolling in.
Microsoft make money despite providing an unreliable service. They shouldn't find it hard to adjust to this new business model.
Deamon is owned by Scottish Telecom (Score:1)
Re:Free ISP connection problems? (Score:1)
It certainly is just as reliable as demon ever were.
Re:What does a typical call cost? (Score:1)
Generally slower (Score:1)
slowing down at all. The free ones are also more difficult to connect to, with a slower throughput; with demon I connect first time every time.
Then again, if people are switching to the free ones, that lightens the load on demon, so I really don't follow the logic behind the claims of demon slowing down.
OK, here's how the future looks... (Score:1)
1. Telcos and Cablecos supply broadband packet
pipes to all homes;
2. The lines are always open - bye bye the
connection model;
3. Each packet is charged according to perceived
'value added';
4. Internet packets are free;
5. Voice (as long as you're talking) is
at some minimal cost;
6. Television and music cost more;
7. Financial data costs more still;
8. Ultima Online and Doom charged according to
the service provider's advertising revenue
or altruism;
9. Home shopping charged according to the value
of the purchase authorised by the packet...
E-commerce is a billing problem, but worth the
effort. Having an identity in Cyberspace is
represented by the existence of a connection
to you. What you do there is charged auto-
matically (and visibly!). One charging system,
but a whole new infrastructure....
Not the right way to do it (Score:1)
ADSL and other 'connectionless' systems are what you need, where once your data is on the net, it can travel by whatever means necessary. POTS was never designed to sustain the kind of connections you want.
Americans and flat rate phone calls (Score:2)
My ISP charges only $17/month here in France, and that was one of the cheapest. They will offer free access next month. But my phone bill for connections has always been between $100 and $250/month just for the many hours I spend online.
Now at least two big ISPs in France have negotiated with France Telecom to keep a share of the phone charges, which allows them to offer free access. But the free access has a price beyond the phone bill, they have you provide huge amounts of personal informations and prove your identity to sign up. Although it is mostly illegal in France to use these informations for other purposes, these companies are already re-selling the informations to all kinds of mailing lists and marketing companies.
Telecom Eireann in Ireland keeps putting up proposals for flat rate, but not like the american model. They have a plan that adds on to your regular phone bill about $25/month that gives you 50 or 100 hours of calls to a single number of your choice, but excludes ISP dialin numbers. But its a start.
Are there any good telco ISPs? (Score:1)
Re: statistics out of kilter? (Score:1)
Regards, Ralph.
Re:Free ISPs, no thanks (Score:1)
The online registration process is too easy you can just type any crap in the form and it'll accept it (this is the case for most is not all ISPs). There should be some checking of the address and then a form that has to be signed and returned (so people can't say they don't know what they are letting themselves in for with regard to the AUP, etc). Only when the form is feceived should the application be processed. Then the user of the system can be responsible for their own security and someone can't just subscribe to a free ISP without the knowledge of the machines owners.
Did that make sense?
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The are not in any deals with Telcos AFAIK (Score:2)
Think of this another way. In the UK Cable companies can compete with BT and offer a phone service (and so can anyone else) people on a Cable network can still phone BT and other phone networks but if you're making a call cross network then the two telcos have to split the charge.
So although the ISP's don't offer a telephone service as such they've paid their registration fees and therefore get their cut of the money without charging any more than a local rate call.
Of course support is another matter, most of these free ISPs have terrible support and charge a fortune for it in expensive phone calls. But then not many people need support.
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Free Linux ISP (Score:1)
Why doesn't one of the UK's supporters of Linux such as the UK UNIX users group (UKUUG) [ukuug.org] offer to assist any ISP who wants to offer Linux support in return for a small fee which would go to the organising of conferences. Alternativly the UKUUG could team up with some other major UK Linux organisations and put the capital together to offer such a service. Personally I'd like to see an ISP that actually supports Linux rather than one that just works with Linux.
Re:Free ISPs, no thanks (Score:1)
Not to mention the massive net congestion that would result as everyone frantically downloads masses of pr0n.
Re:What does a typical call cost? (Score:1)
Out of interest MSN are just jumping on the bandwagon of become-free-or-die. My own personal experience as a mailing list owner is that people are leaving AOL and the like in swarms to the new free ISPs such as Freeserve (the original and biggest).
Something new has also happened in the UK. A Telco has set up a ISP and are giving free calls to their ISP service if you sign up to use them for your phone calls instead of British Telecom (BT). There called screaming.net if anyone's interested.
Of course I recently moved to California so I now get my ISP calls free - and have a dial in via my office - so it's 100% free for me... nice.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Free ISP Connectivity Problems (Score:1)
The free ISPs aren't running as competition to the telcos: the telco gets money for terminating the call ( usually from BT, it depends who they interconnect with ) and shares it with the free ISP for generating the call in the first place. Thus the ISP survives by living off the telco industries profits ( mostly BT, hence the complaints ) and revenue from support calls ( also telco profits ). Some of them may get further income from selling ad space, although as there's loads of them ( you can buy a free ISP "off the shelf".. I know, we sell them ), the ones who forgo this are going to gain more customers and hence more call revenue. The few ISPs who are also telcos in their own right generally don't want to bother providing phone service to end-users, other than specialised services like international calls or peak-rate 0898 numbers.
Actually the phone numbers aren't cheaper: they're fixed-rate national numbers like 0845, which can work out as slightly more expensive given that most telcos do deals for local calls. We keep our old national POP system in place for customers who want to use the Cable&Wireless 50p weekend deal, after much pressure from them.
BT are in a strange position: they own the national telephone network, are forced to provide services to new telcos now the network is deregulated, and have to answer to their shareholders: but they're only in the position they are because they were handed a monopoly on a plate. I'm just waiting for Railtrack ( who also have a large private telco network ) to join in.. given their level of service to the train companies, I can't imagine how bad their phone service would be.