Ex-AppleCare Employee Describes Life Inside Apple 220
ahknight writes "A former AppleCare employee writes about his time in Apple. From the article: 'I remember when I first started at Apple they had a picture in the training class of some guy in flip-flops, shorts, and a tropical shirt in a decorated cube with a goofy grin, the message being: it's casual. One fellow even went as far as pushing that to the reasonable limit by showing up to work every day for several months in a bathrobe and sandals (and shorts). I don't recall a word ever being said. I think he actually just gave up because no one said anything.'"
little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Knowlegde and understanding of tech is just 50% of the support-job, knowledge and understanding of people is the rest.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Excellent quote (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Then again, there is a limit, and if you work for the right company, a properly defined one. Nevertheless, judging FTA, this guy makes the same classic mistake tons of helldesk employees do, which is to confuse the concept of "intelligence" with "knowledge about computers". It never ceases to amaze me how underpaid geeks somehow can't get it into their skulls that the guy is not stupid, he's a bloody doctor/lawyer/diplomat/you name it, for crying out loud. Perhaps someday they'll turn the tables and when a guy like this walks into a doctor's office the good ol' doc will expect him to know whether he's running a beta version of his appendix.
Oh it's "this guy" (Score:5, Insightful)
How many of us here have done tech support as a full time gig? I bet the show of hands is impressive. How many realized it was time to move on, not just from the job, but from the "customerz R teh st00pitz" attitude as well?
No? Haven't figured that out yet? Enjoy your time in the middle.
There's always one, or more, of those guys who feel that they have been given the shaft. They're just so good technically but they can't seem to put a career together. Why? It' must be dumb luck and conspiracy. "I don't get promoted because [manager|company|god] is threatened by my skill, or because they are short sighted, or because maybe I didn't take a shower this month".
Those of you who have your eyes upwards, or elsewhere know who I'm talking about. Those who are this guy will not realize it.
Wait... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not like anybody twisted this gomer's arm to become an Apple employee, nor continue the pain of cashing those regular checks for 4 years...
The telling point is that, even after all of his tale of woe, he's still an elitist snob going to work in an Apple-only software shop. Here's hoping when his gear breaks, he gets support from someone just. like. him.
Seemed Like He Was Spot on To Me (Score:5, Insightful)
I particularly liked the part where the bozo with the "mission critical" computer didn't back it up. If it's mission critical, you have redundancy. If you don't have redundancy, it's not mission critical - you've already decided you can survive without it.
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
He didn't actually have to interact directly with the guy to know what he's like at support - after all the guy wrote a long article describing his experiences. Perhaps after reading the following in TFA:The GP thought that the guy who wrote the story had a bit of contempt for his customers? I hope that attitude is not typical for Apple Support (but judging by my experience with the "Geniuses" I would say it is).
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
And just as the larger group of Mac users are just normal people doing their thing, the larger group of computer users are normal people doing their thing.
Ask *anyone* in tech support, in any business. I've asked a few in different businesses and the answer's always the same.
This blog poster's attitude is nothing unusual.
Re:Oh it's "this guy" (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not that people are stupid. It's that they don't completely understand the technology they're trying to use. But they shouldn't need to. Technology is a tool, and they simply want it to work. Much like their car - they don't need to understand the inner workings of their car in order to drive it. And it's frustrating when it doesn't.
That said, a decade in support will wear on a person. I finally had to move to IT management in a non-IT company with less than a dozen employees. They key is to move on when it's time, and never, *ever*, let the customer see any of your frustrations with your job before you do.
Re:Oh it's "this guy" (Score:1, Insightful)
Ahh, people skills. The fine art of "talking to the right people at the right time", also known as kissing ass in plain english. Some people are just not that much inclined to do so.
Also, I guess you've never worked at a large-ish techsupport department or company? If you are a highly skilled guy helping thousands of noob^h^h^h^h customers, management (ie. the guys you would unleash your "people skills" on) are going to do everything they can to keep you in place. That means no career moves. That means that after about a year or two, three it's time to move on. As the article states!
I think the article represents in no way a "customerz R teh st00pitz" attitude.
The guy simply states that in about a 1000 calls, there are a lot of unreasonable and unfriendly people, and that this will get to you sooner or later. If it doesn't you're either a robot or BOFH. In the latter case, you really shouldn't be in techsupport.
Right, "people skill" yourself up to what? higher class? Jeez.
Re:Oh it's "this guy" (Score:1, Insightful)
You know, I don't think I read the same article as you. But then I've never worked in tech support and been embittered by it like you seem to have been.
Re:Oh it's "this guy" (Score:2, Insightful)
A lot of it is being in the right place at the right time, and trying to arrange things so that you are more often in the right place at that time
That, and people like to work with people that they like. Make yourself likeable, and strangely, people will like you. And you will get promoted.
It always works that way for me, anyway, but then, I'm the deviant geek that actually likes people, and genuinely wants to help them.
Would you like fries with that? (Score:5, Insightful)
The pay, conditions, level of respect you receive, and especially the customers, all comparable. Flipping burgers and switching backup tapes don't feel all that different, they're both soul destroying once you get past any initial novelty.
So it's hardly surprising that many leave the job in a pretty bitter state. What is surprising is how many of them think their situation is novel, and that it's worthy of sharing with the world.
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, I have a method for getting excellent customer service when I call Apple, or some other tech company. One of the first things out of my mouth is, "I'm one of those total idiots, but I promise I won't yell at you." This usually gets at least a giggle. Then I actually make two minutes of small talk. No shit! I don't drag it out any further, but I want to get at least a tiny feel for whom I'm talking to.
Next, I outline my problem. I have ready any pertinent information (model #, OS version, etc.). I have notes about what steps I've already taken. Then I go through whatever steps the service rep has in their three ring binder (or modern equivalent). When none of those steps solve the problem, they send me a box to send in my laptop. I thank the rep, and ask for their manager's email address, so I can send praise. And I do so.
I've never called Apple with a software problem. It's always been hardware. Software I can solve on my own. They've been nothing but top notch in solving my hardware problems, going above and beyond, fixing things that I didn't expect to be covered by Applecare (dented case, cigarette burns on the keyboard).
As I said, Applecare has been top notch, in my experience. This might be because of pure dumb luck or it might be because I treat the rep as I would want to be treated if I was in their shoes. My attitude is, "How can I help the rep (to help me)." I've heard a few horror stories, and I attribute those to either bad luck, or the customer being a cocksucker.
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
As a programmer, I think that *all* programmers have to spend some time supporting customers on some stuff. Or at least read articles like this or talk to tech support from time to time. Not for the amusement ("hey, they are stupid") part, but in order to better understand how usual people see computers, in order to be able to adopt software to their views/habits.
This mostly applies to UI designers/developoers, but every software component has its human users, and knowing these users is a key point in creating a successful application.
Oh noes! (Score:4, Insightful)
Give me a break. For those of us in IT, there are lots of jobs and lots of career paths -- but if you really want a new job, you have to motivate yourself, learn on your own, and (often times) leave the company to get a better job. If you're intelligent (as another user pointed out, just because you have a knack for computers doesn't make you smart) and are good with customers and juniors, you'll go far.
The key thing support guys (and I fall into this category) usually fail to realize is that they are not the cock-n-balls. They are the jock strap. It is their position to support the important parts of the business. Like the dispair.com poster says, just because you're essential, it doesn't mean you're important.
Me? I've got 8 1/2 years of IT experience. I went from being a lowly support guy (about as low as you can get...a data tech in the Marine Corps), today I'm a router guy who does senior-level enterprise network support for almost a half-million end users in our organization. Daily.
If you want it bad enough, you can get it. Just get rid of the "heh heh stoopid lusers" attitude and get with the program. IT support is little different than A/C repair, vehicle repair, medicine, or a myraid of other support/repair professions. Get the customer to trust you, don't make them feel stupid for not being able to do it themselves, and in the end, get them up and running, and happy that you're there for them, and will be next time.
You never hear EMTs giggling after work about stupid guys not being able to recognize heart attack symptoms. They get on the scene, and help the patient. Help the customer. Support them. That's what "IT support" is all about.
Re:little Apple (Score:4, Insightful)
At least with appliances, its not really a matter of being stupid, since the interface has been the same for generations.
Still, we'd get the crazies, (for good service, don't threaten the serviceman with a gun) and the entitled (My warantee is a year expired, but I want free service!) or those who think that everything's our fault (Wait, you mean if its a user error, the warantee's not going to cover it and I'll have to paaaaaaaaay? Thats horrible!).
Face it, People suck. Tech support has to deal with these people, and it only gets worse as the gadgets get more complicated and hard to use. The only people who have it worse than Tech support is billing, because frankly you've not heard the meaning of pissed till someone has problems dealing with money.
That being said, we do our job. Our job is to be nice, helpful, understanding. How long do you think anyone would last if they showed their contempt to every customer who called up? I'd say a week, tops. People can tell, and people don't like it. They call your manager, and then you get written up.
I treated every one of my calls like it was my problem, and I probably had one of the worst track times in the whole building. There were still things I couldn't do for the customer, still problems that I had to say "sorry, we don't cover that", and you know, it sucks, but thats not our call.
Re:Oh it's "this guy" (Score:3, Insightful)
as another applecare rep..... (Score:3, Insightful)
If you're an asshat, you'll get a lot more asshats because you CAUSED IT!
I personally PREFER people with zero knowledge of computers. they do exactly what I ask them to quickly and efficiently.
It's the people that think they know everything and argue that they know more than you that make life hard.
When someone is obviously low in computer proficiency I tell them "It's really OK. I'm sure there's something you do much better than me, some day I may need YOUR help."
The moment I say that the call goes very smoothly, as they know I'm not going to judge them, I'm just there to help.
Booo hoo - too good for customer service job (Score:3, Insightful)
I have worked a ton of these jobs and a lot of things people have said so far I totally and completely agree with:
1. Just because someone does not understand computers does not make them an idiot. I did tech support for lawyers at one point and you cannot tell me that the Harvard grad senior partner was an idiot just because he knew less about computers than Bob the first year help desk guy. Yet, Bob got his silly butt fired for treating the senior partner like a moron and insulting his computing skills.
2. Its customer service. Yeah you might be able to answer half the questions before the customer figures out what to tell you about their problem but come on.
3. Sure, a customer should be prepared with basic info going into a help desk call just like you should have all your insurance info right there when you call the company on a claim and all that. But this is not the way to look at it. When someone takes their car in especially nowadays they do not know cars and can barely in grunts noises and gestures describe their issue. That is the way it is. Its the job. Get over it.
4. You think customer service sucks? Man, you ain't seen shitty jobs till you flipped burgers or done landscaping in the hot summer or worked a conveince store so until you have scrubbed puke out of a toilet at 3am after the drunks drop come in with the munchies acting rowdy then shut the hell up. Boo-frickin-hoo You are above it? Then quit, get a better job and get over it.
5. I agree with the poster who talked about the good service from Apple. I have heard some motherboard freaking out mac in the shop for weeks horror stories. But it has never been my experience. I went in a month after I got my shuffle and the usb went dead and my computer would not recognize the thing at all. Unlike one poster that wrote the Genius Bar guys off as arrogant the guy checked out what I said I told him what I had tried and he plugged the thing into a Mac right there and - nothing- they replaced it right then and there. Quick, easy polite and all.
Not news, not worthy. (Score:2, Insightful)
Teamwork and Infrastructure Matter (Score:5, Insightful)
I worked in Applecare for 9 years and saw a lot of this attitude. Tech support specialist feel more knowledgeable than we actually are because we forget the enormous support given to us by our teammates and the support infrastructure of the company. It might be true that any particular high level support tech could leave the company and get highly paid for the knowledge they possess but that superior knowledge would grow stale in hurry. They would have an edge for 3-6 months but after that slip down the knowledge slope and end up just like everyone else.
Applecare techs can quickly solve problem that would take expensive consultants because they have an instant reservoir of high quality information at their fingertips. First, they have their teammates who are also specialist in area who can be tapped just by poking one's head over a cube wall. Second, they have the databases, training and testing labs provided by the company that lets them find answers quickly. Thirdly, they can escalate problems up the technical food chain until it hits the people who actually created the product in the first place.
All this support makes the individual feel super-knowledgeable but I saw a lot of people leave for consulting gigs who didn't make it for long because they under-estimated how important their support was.
Tech support isn't for everyone. Its not a high status job by any means no matter how well compensated. However, if you like rapid problem solving, have basic personal skills and can just remember that if everyone knew what you knew you wouldn't have job in the first place, it can be a good career.
Re:little Apple (Score:2, Insightful)
My best callers are fellow support techs without paper certs and with years of experience at the desktop, on the phone, in the home, and in the business. Field people are my greatest callers because they've been there and are generally smart enough to bother using more than a few brain cells before calling.
But most callers are just plain braindead. Remember kids, stupid is intellectual laziness and hence a choice. Like using Spin to tell you what is cool to listen to.
Re:Oh noes! (Score:3, Insightful)
Bad analogy. Now if the heart-attack victim shot up off the ground and strangled the EMT and started blaming his for his high cholesterol, well that'd be about right.
On user knowledge (Score:1, Insightful)
I have been working in IT for over 7.5 years now and I can tell you this: It's not the users' lack of computer knowledge/skills that pisses us off. It's their laziness for not even TRYING to figure these things out. The vast majority of our problems are that users do not know how to user their computers. I currently support over 350 computers and 700 users. In this pool of users, there are very few (around 10 - 15) users who actually make a good solid effort to learn how to use their computers. When something goes "wrong" they instantly freak out and call IT to come to their offices to fix the problem. I don't have this documented so I will pull this number out of my ass. I am willing to bet that around 85% - 90% of my time is wasted on showing users how to user their computers.
Now I know some of you are going to bitch about the use of the word 'wasted' there, but it really is appropriate. Would I apply for a job as a chef of a 5 star hotel if I didn't know how to use an oven? If I couldn't make the thing cook food, would I bitch and moan that the oven doesn't work and call the repair guy in to fix it? Hell no! I would be fired. One of the major problems here is that more and more jobs today require people to use computers. When people apply for jobs in my department, they are asked if they know how to use a computer. Specifically, clerical staff are asked about MS Office and they even have it on their resumes that they are proficient with Office. I'm not kidding, the people who put these skills on their resumes ask me simple things like, "how do I save a file?" I literally had to draw a picture of a computer with a blow up box for the power button, just so one of our PhDs would know how to turn the computer on. I wasn't being sarcastic. He TOLD me to do this for him! These types of problems are NOT rare! Most of my users freak out when an error message pops up. When I ask them what it says, they said they didn't read it, they just clicked 'OK' and bad things started to happen. People need to have the common sense and lack of laziness to at least read error messages that pop up. The ones who do try to read it still end up geting freaked out before they finish and call us. Basic understanding of the language on your screen and a basic basic basic knowledge of computers is enough to understand most of the error and other messages that pop up. (Please, don't give me shit about cryptic messages. I am fully aware of them and hate them, but most messages are very easy to understand if you just read them.)
Getting past the issue of user laziness and onto the issue of user knowledge, there is a difference between computer users not knowing how to map an SMB share and people who don't know how to login or save a file. Face it, 30 years ago pen, paper, and type writers may have been the tops in office tools, but today, it's the computer. We should have some reasonable expectations for what you can and cannot do with a computer before you are hired into a job that requires its use. Consider the billions of dollars wasted each year in the mere time it takes IT personnel to teach users how to use the tools of their jobs. Until the k-12 system catches up and the graduating high-school seniors are expected to know how to use a computer as well as a pencil, we need to have some better policies surrounding the minimum level of computer proficiency for a job. If you apply for the job and claim to have that proficiency and it becomes found out later that you don't, instead of giving your IT guy more grief, give the employee who isn't qualified the axe.
I want it to be known that I am all about user education. I have been doing it for over 7 years. But their needs to be a limit. I'm n
Re:Minor rant (Score:2, Insightful)
Even dual-layer DVDs are tiny (and until very recently were so horrendously expensive by comparison that they are not cost effective to use for backup purposes). If I buy them online, they're only about half again more expensive per gig than single-layer, which is just barely within the realm of acceptability price-wise. Even then, at 27 minutes apiece, it's over 11 hours of backup, albeit only needing a change every half hour....
Tape drives cost a couple thousand dollars, and you still have to buy tapes that still cost approximately twice as much per gigabyte as your hard drive. And you still need to change media three times for a single full backup.
For people in a home environment, there are no practical backup mechanisms. The technologies out there are band-aids. Every time I hear about new backup software, my answer is the same: give me some usable backup media. Backing up is really easy. Finding the time to wait around to swap 50+ DVDs while the backups burn is hard. Finding the money to pay for that storage is even harder. We don't need software. We need $1 apiece 50GB blu-ray recordable media and broad availability of drives. Of course, by the time Blu-Ray media gets there price-wise, the average drive will be a terabyte and 50GB will seem small again.
Unless something changes drastically, backing up will never be practical for consumers who actually use their computers to the fullest. Backup storage is currently (and historically) growing at the same speed as primary storage, and until backup jumps ahead suddenly by about an order of magnitude, only corporate users will be able to afford regular backups. Sucks, no?
Re:I rock, all else sucks. (Score:4, Insightful)
"I worked in Austin's AppleCare center for four and a half years as a desperation move"
Uh, four and a half months is a desperation move. Anything over a year, and you've given up. And as someone who has a bit of call center experience (I gave up for a while too), I've seen my share of these guys. The ones who will use every possible acronym and technical name for stuff as possible (and usually get it completely wrong) when dealing with the customer. And if you're one of those people, and can't understand why the customers never seem to rate their call with you "Very Satisfied", imagine this:
You take your car into the mechanic. Now what is the first thing that comes into your head when he starts talking about this joint, that gasket, and wing nuts and what not. You may happen to know exactly what he's talking about, but most of us don't, and our first thought it, "This guy's trying to screw me".
Now imagine a guy trying to explain the windows NT TCP/IP stack to grandma... Wonder what she'll rate him when the survey monkey comes a calling...
Everyone's a "user" some time... (Score:3, Insightful)
Nod.
I'm sure my mechanic thinks I'm a pain in the neck, 'cos I don't find cars the coolest things ever and keep coming back with stuff I could have avoided if I obsessed over my car the way I do over my computer.
Re:I rock, all else sucks. (Score:5, Insightful)
You've convinced me not to bother with this story when becomes deslashdotted. But jeez, what do you expect? Blogs are all about vanity. And yet people love this shit. That is what bothers me.
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
A month ago I had to call cox about my cable modem and I dreaded making the call, knowing that I was going to be treated to someone with less than half my knowlege.
My connection would just die after any type data would transfer. It could be replicated within a seconds of loading up counter-strike or downloading a file. After much tests I concluded that either my cable modem was going bad, or their line had issues.
Sir, do you have a home network.
Yes.
Sir, first of all, it is not our network, it is your network with the problem.
Lady, I disconnected from the network and am currently directly connected to the cable modem.
Ok sir, what browser do you use.
Opera.
Sir, we don't support Opera
Lady, I have Firefox and IE, I assume you want me to use IE, pretend I never said Opera.
How often do you clear your temporary internet files?
Lady, I just want to play counter-strike, I never use IE, so I don't clear the temp files.
Sir, we don't support games
Ok, forget I said counter-strike, would you like me to go clear my temp files now?
Please.
Ok, that was fast, now what? I still can't download more than a few KB of that linux ISO.
(we continued with other newbie crap such as my connection settings, firewall, manage add-ins, if I have any 'strange icons next to the clock', etc, etc...)
Sir, I am in your modem right now and all the levels look good
I start a download and connection dies, she says she is still in my modem.
Your modem is fine, I am connected to it and all levels look good.
It looks good??? my internet JUST died. Lady, I need to get off the phone, click
I go to best buy, buy a new cable modem, call them up and give them my new info and my problems are now gone.
What good was my knowledge? Even though I know a thing or two, I was treated like I knew nothing.
Re:little Apple (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:little Apple (Score:1, Insightful)
I'm not saying that callcenter CSR's aren't woefully undertrained, and not the least bit interested in their jobs. But you caused some of your own problems. When I have to call tech support I expect the worst, so I always try to make things as easy as possible for both of us.