Linspire CEO dispels Linspire Linux Myths

An anonymous reader writes "Chances are that you think Linspire lets you run Windows applications, that you have to run it as root, and that it's really not quite a proper Linux. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. At LinuxWorld in Boston this week, CEO Kevin Carmony explained what Linspire Linux is, and isn't all about. Carmony said that people are still getting these things wrong. Yes, in the beginning, Linspire had the goal of letting Linux users run Windows applications with WINE, but it dropped that theme years ago. As for requiring you to run as root, that was, Carmony said, only the case with an early alpha release that was never put in the public's hands. As for not being a real Linux, that's nonsense, too."

Linspire doesn't equal linux?

[reklusband]

I don't think anybody ever thought it wasn't linux, just that it was a CRAPPY version of linux. I also don't think too many people thought about linspire in terms of OS, more in terms of questionable politics.

Getting ahead of themselves?

[Kijori]

Aren't they getting a bit ahead of themselves trying to dispel 'common myths' about Linspire when the vast majority of people have no idea what it is, let alone whether its main goal is to run Windows applications?

Uh... okay

[Anonymous Coward]

But here's the important thing. There's, like, ninety-six linux distributions. I already know that Ubuntu is friendly when you don't want to spend a lot of time configuring things, and Redhat is friendly to people in suits. But why the heck should I care about this one, Linspire? What, if anything, differentiates it from the other ninety-four linux distributions I don't personally have a use for at the present time? Because if there isn't a good answer to that question, it needs to go get back at the end of the line.

Re-tree

[x2A]

Many complaints I hear about moving over to unix like systems is the filesystem hierarchy. I think for a really easy-for-noobs and for grabbing windows users, I'd like to see a patched distro where /dev, /proc, /sys etc are moved to (for example) /system. Put them all together and move them where the users knows they're not gonna need to go into.

Could even have a chrooted dir with mount --binds to make a seperate namespace for unpatched/closed source apps.

We really could do with tidying the root. Yes it breaks compatibility with unpatched software, but as it is breaks compatibility with users.

(let the flaming commense)

Seems to me...

[Otter]

My impression is that Lindows/Linspire has always been viewed as outside the world of "real Linux" because:

1) None of the ultra-user-friendly commercial distros have ever really caught on with the Linux enthusiast community.

2) Linspire's business plan has alwasy been based on charging users for installing sofware, something that is free everywhere else in the Linux world.

3) As #2 illustrates, there's always been something sleazy about Linspire. They appeared, making ludicrous claims about Windows compatability, stepping on Microsoft's trademark while prominently advertising rebadged KDE apps as their own, and they've been like that ever since. They may not do anything wrong but it's always ... off.

Re:Intersting statement from TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

I think what he's getting at is that most of the big money in OS sales comes from OEM deals rather than sales direct to customers. Microsoft make most of their sales via OEMs so why shouldn't Linspire try and do the same? Sounds like a winning formula to me.

Re:Intersting statement from TFA

[sp0rk173]

Boxes as in boxed OS product, not box as in computer.

The biggest problem of Linux desktop adaption

[zerojoker]

is not usability or hardware support or people having trouble installing linux. The big problem that somehow noone really figures is the lack of applications. The lack of commercial applications, especially.
There are a lot of kinds of applications where OpenSource works great. "Standard" stuff like mail clients etc. But the more specific an application gets the more it is likely that it is commerically developed. Photoshop, Games, Autocad, Dreamweaver etc. etc. And even then there are some issues concerning application deployment, especially if the source is not available...

Re:Intersting statement from TFA

[evil agent]

Translation:

Many people download Linspire
Implies: geeks are using Linspire
Conclusion: who cares, nothing new

Many people buy computers with Linspire on them
Implies: regular, 'non-geek' people are using Linspire
Conclusion: increase in Linux adoption

Re:Re-tree

[Eideewt]

I would say that root is a place that users never need to go into. A user's home directory is the only part of the computer they ought to mess with. Ideally, a noob will never know about the directories above /home/yournamehere unless they decide they want to learn some stuff and muck around with the guts of their system. The current way puts the user's zone in its own litte branch of the file system, which is pretty much the same as hiding the rest of the system in a subdirectory, except instead of knowing not to enter the dreaded system folder, users don't even have to be aware of it (and they can't rm -rf * it). A user should never ever be messing around in root. That's why a normally configured system doesn't even let them do more that look at it. It's true that most home users will at some point need to be their own admin as well, but in that case, it doesn't much matter that the system files are right there, since the admin is working with them anyway.

myths?

[Anonymous Coward]

just the fact that they've set out to dispel these myths, the fact that they ever, in any incarnation were ever actually true, is just a sad testament to their alignment and beliefs in the community.

they aren't a real gnu/linux distribution because their business model and principles don't fit in with ours.

they ever thought a superuser by default setup was good? who are you?

lets repackage the apt repository and start selling .deb's! seriously?

i've looked at the distribution, it looks like they've taken quite a bit of time to rebrand common applications, line openoffice and gaim, to be "linspire" applications. all that effort, or at least 95% of it should be put into doing something new and helpful for the community.. do something useful.

sheesh.

Long Overdue

[drDugan]

After reading TFA and reading about CNR, all I can say is... great. I had written off Linspire when I first read about it - the wine stuff that I knew was impossible and buggy... etc. But the philosophy is a good one: bring Linnux under the hood on a polished, housewife/housewide audience - not just the hackers.

I wish him all the best. Now I'll get back to trying to my dkpg-reconfigure and apt-get'ing the latest Ruby Gem from unstable while not upgrading my Standord C libs.

good stuff

[aurelito]

People on Slashdot often speak of Linux as if it's a finite resource: that if Linspire takes off, it must mean distributions like Slackware or Debian or Gentoo are losing users. That's not true at all. Linspire's target market is a niche previously untapped (not even by Ubuntu or short-lived Caldera) of people who just want a workstation with a web browser, a word processor, a calculator and maybe solitaire. All the power to to Linspire for doing this. There's room in the Linux world for this. I think they're doing a useful thing, and if they come up with some good, non-crippling ideas that improve usability, perhaps other distros will benefit from their innovation one day too.

Re:The reality of Linspire

[diamondsw]

In reality, no OS has achieved the status of so simple yet so useful that grandma/sister/computer-novice can use without assistance.

Ahem. [apple.com]

Re:Intersting statement from TFA

[AKAImBatman]

I'm not really sure what to make of this statement.

Allow me to explain: Michael Roberts does business by drawing attention to himself. He makes various outlandish statements that he simply can't backup. (Remember when Lindows was going to run 90% of the Windows programs?) If you want to make something of his statements, interpret them as nothing more than pandering to the audience.

Re:Linspire doesn't equal linux?

[tonymus]

"I don't think anybody ever thought it wasn't linux, just that it was a CRAPPY version of linux."

That's bullshit-ese for "they dare to charge for their product".

I've been using Linspire for years; it's my third try at Linux (after Mandrake ver 7 and Lycoris Desktop L/X). It's stable, has lots of eye candy, runs KDE, and install and runs much Linux software with one click, thanks to Click 'N Run, the killer Linspire application. It supports many Internet file formats automatically, and lets me use my computer DVD player without becoming a pirate (per US laws).

I understand the OS is a bit slow loading, and some OS'es may be a bit quicker in spots, but this doesn't bother me much at all. Linspire is MY choice for linux; YMMV.

Really, these religous wars among distributions doesn't do Linux as a whole any good...

Re:I don't understand...

[Bob Loblaw]

There are a few factors at play here ... and none of them are retardation :]

1) scope of usage:
If your 2 yr old is writing letters, emailing, printing, transferring pictures from their camera, burning music CDs, balancing their bank account, tracking their stocks, etc. then I will be impressed by your superior genes. However, many people have no problems doing the simple things like finding a game and playing it. Yet with complexity comes difficulty.

2) familiarity
If someone has learned a particular way of doing things, they have a tough time switching gears into a new paradigm/UI/menu structure. Your kid benefits from having a clean slate and will probably be hesitant to switch to anything else later on.

3) inflexibility
The older you get, the more inflexible you brain seems to get. You want things *your* way ... just like the good ol' days! Some people manage to keep a nimble brain as they age but it takes mental exercise to do so and the vast majority of people let their brain get flabby. I don't blame them as the work environment is structured to flabbify your brain as you advance through it. Less precarious due to more power, less challenging, more specialization and leaning on previous experience, etc. Your kids' brain is still a knowledge sponge. :]

So, sorry, you are not super-human.

Re:Seems to me...

[Mistshadow2k4]

That's because the fact that Lindows was using the Windows name was much clearer in the languages of those countries. They have their own words for application windows and none of them are "windows". But Windows the OS was still called Windows, and Lindows was also called Lindows. It would be like someone here starting a company and calling it "Reddish Hat".

What questionable politics?

[Roadkills-R-Us]

I'm an IT geek by dayy, running a 200+ system Linux shop, and *I* am interested in Linspire at home. At home, I just want to install an OS and have everything work. I mkean *everything*. It sucks when my wife wants to do something basic, and I have to go download a bunch of stuff and try to make it work with my current version of Linux.

If you're not referring to the fact that they include some proprietary software, please explain. Otherwise just realize that Linux will never* get out of cult status in the home until it includes whatever is needed to make it Just Work.

not that it matters, really

[r00t]

A virus that infects the user account can destroy everything that matters. It can email my private data to anybody.

I'll be generous, and say it can't change $PATH or define an alias for su or sudo. :-) It certainly couldn't make a wrapper for xterm or install itself as an X input method. :-)

What is protected? Oh, the OS itself. I got that from a CD-ROM. I don't even need a backup for that data. Heck, if it gets trashed, I'll use the opportunity to upgrade my OS.

We don't have real security until users get the ability to easily sub-divide their accounts using the full power of SE Linux. They also need "trusted path" (look it up) for controlling this.

Re:not that it matters, really

[cammoblammo]

Think of the situation where there's more than one person with an account on the machine. As it stands the worst a viral 'rm -rf /' (or whatever) can do is trash my files. My wife's files are safe. If I run that same code as root, I lose my files, the OS's files and all conjugal privileges!

Re:not that it matters, really

[nahdude812]

Well, if you're running as root and get compromised, it might do more than just steal or delete your data. It might install spyware or a bot that infects / spams / whatevers other people, and continues to corrupt / steal your data going forward.

There's a lot more danger to a virus than losing your personal data. There's other users of the same machine, and even for single-user machines, there's forward going infection, and danger to other netizens.

Get a rootkit in place, and you might be unwittingly giving away access to your box from now until the next time you do a full system upgrade, and never know it.

Re:Linspire doesn't equal linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

First off, that Linspire computer you bring home has a fully functioning version of Linux on it. Uncomment the sources file, and you can use apt-get.

And you will break the OS this way. Unlike Ubuntu, Linspire doesn't maintain their own copy of Debian synced to Linspire. The sources.list is set to pull directly from Debian Unstable. If you start installing Debian packages you'll also pull in new libraries and end up with a thoroughly broken system.

What is your problem with them offering AV software? You don't have to buy it and with one click of the mouse, you'll never see the system tray icon again. As explained by Kevin Carmony, they offer it because several important commercial clients requested it. And, thanks to the recent creation of a virus (concept only at this stage) that can attack both Windows and linux, maybe an AV program isn't so silly after all.

By that leap of logic it would be reasonable to sell a Linux disk defragmenter. Sure, it doesn't actually do anything, but some clueless user may imagine they need it. Why point out defragmenting isn't necessary when you can make a quick buck of someone's stupidity.

Get past "Linux for $$"! Move onto real problems!

[KWTm]

I agree that there's a lot of unnecessary ill-will that's subconsciously and reflexively generated whenever we Linux geeks hear that some software costs money. Although Linux is predicated on software freedom ("free" software), we are too accustomed to zero-cost software ("free" software).

The quantity of quality zero-cost software is nothing short of astounding, for which I will always be grateful to the hacker community --but at the same time, it creates expectations that form a trap. We are used to leveraging our geek skills to gain certain "powers" (from a software Role-Playing-Game point of view) without having to pay, and it's almost like a return on our investment in being geeks. "You had to *buy* Photoshop?" you say to your roommate, your voice dripping with disdain. "*I* got GIMP for free!" (And then we get upset that Photoshop was pirated, of course. What's the use of being a geek if the non-geeks can get zero-cost software, too?)

But, for those of you who envision software freedom spreading throughout the world, let me ask you: where do you want the money to come from, in such a world, so that software businesses large and small can continue to flourish? Okay, I know the standard answers --payment for support, most software is within large companies, payment for reliable source of software, etc. etc.

The next question is: how do you think we should get there? After all, an "open world where there's no need for windows or gates" (tm) doesn't just pop into being; you have to make a transition. How do companies make money in a world where people will buy copies of copy-protected proprietary tax software for us$30, but not pay for zero-cost FOSS that can replace all of Microsoft Office (or even Microsoft Windows)?

In short, *should* we pay for software?

Linspire wants $20 to $50 to do C&R. Are they truly being sleazy? They're getting $$$ just to set up a server for distributing free Debian software! They're fooling people into paying money that users don't really have to pay!

And accounting company H&R Block charges for tax preparation services. How sleazy! They're getting $$$ for filling in forms you can get for free! They're fooling their customers into paying, when they can use a calculator for free!

We need to think before we bash Linspire's C&R service. They are being rewarded for filling a niche, or at least Linspire thinks so, and from our capitalist way of thinking, they should be admired. The fact that we geeks don't need C&R doesn't mean that Linspire is trying to pull a fast one, any more than we despise Barnes & Noble for trying to sell books like "Apache Security for Dummies" when *any* geek knows how easy it is to set up a chroot jail on a headless server --what a rip-off!

I'm not saying that the C&R service is perfect, and I have my own hesitations about having C&R. (I bought my own Lindows-preinstalled PC some years ago.) My main concerns are: 1) does it lock you into C&R, or will the standard Debian repositories be compatible? 2) Is the C&R software high quality (well-packaged)?

I think that Slashdot is a valuable place for discussing and criticising what's wrong with Linspire, and figuring out where we'd like Linspire to go (especially since Mr. Carmony himself seems to be participating in this discussion), but what I see instead is invalid and unnecessary bashing of C&R. I see a risk that this thread will terminate prematurely, before we can take advantage of our collective Slashdot intellect to analyze the actual situation.

Guys, the Linspire CEO is here. Wouldn't you like a chance to tell what you think to the leader of a company that might be poised to get Linux exposure in certain unique markets? If you do, there better be a bit more insight than "Linux good!" or "Linux for money bad!".

Re:not that it matters, really

[WilliamSChips]

Because if you have any incredibly important files, you can put them in a special user account, and your normal user account can't reach them. But root can reach anything, no exceptions(unless they're encrypted and the decryption key's only on another computer, but root can still delete them). Oh, and a trojan running as root can do a lot more than one running in a normal user account. And if you have multiple people using your computer, root give you access to not only your personal files, but everyone else's as well.