Today in P2P 135
Hylton Jolliffe writes "I wanted to alert you to an article by research Marc Eisenstadt that digs deep into BitTorrent, its potential and limitations and its implications for podcasting, filesharing and more."
"Luke, I'm yer father, eh. Come over to the dark side, you hoser." -- Dave Thomas, "Strange Brew"
Re:Another useless blog (Score:1, Insightful)
eMule stats not to be believed. (Score:3, Insightful)
This page [emule-project.net] suggests that the number of users is due to fake servers.
Re:Another useless blog (Score:3, Informative)
I use aMule [amule.org]
Re:Another useless blog (Score:1)
s/get attention to/suicide/
Re:Another useless blog (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Another useless blog (Score:1)
Re:Another useless blog (Score:2)
Waiting several hours for a download to begin is hardly what I'd call a sign of a functional system.
Careful (Score:2)
Re:Careful (Score:1)
is it jsut me (Score:1)
was it worth the read? is there a mirror?
Re:is it jsut me (Score:1)
I think we broke mysql...
Re:is it jsut me (Score:1)
Anyway, I tried again and I got it to load halfway at least. Nothing useful though, just the title image and a couple links to elsewhere on corante.com
Re:is it jsut me (Score:2)
Re:wha!?!?! (Score:1)
And I guess nobody told Mr. Jolliffe that he should make sure Marc Eisenstadt webserver could handle the load...
Re:Slashraped (Score:4, Interesting)
I've written a script (just finished last night) to make it easier to serve torrents on a website (they create metainfo and serve all files matching a particular pattern in a given set of directories, and shut them down and delete the created torrents when you stop it), designed to be used with MultiViews enabled (i.e., if they request the file, and they have their Accept header tag prefer bittorrent, it'll give them the torrent instead of the regular file; otherwise, they'll get the regular file). The downside is that I'm going to need to see if I can get any browsers to include bittorrent in their Accept tag
Content-Encoding would be better, because it would be transparent. You wouldn't get a bittorrent download launched, but instead it'd be unpacked straight to the browser cache. A good implementation would allow multiple file to be torrented together, although that could get tricky. In theory, you could serve all requested static content in a single torrent; in practice, this may be unreasonable.
Re:Slashraped (Score:1)
/.ed already? (Score:1)
Re:/.ed already? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:/.ed already? (Score:5, Informative)
January 11, 2005
BitTorrent, eXeem, Meta-Torrent, Podcasting: "What? So What?"
Posted by Marc Eisenstadt
SUMMARY: The index that facilitates the sharing of files on a large scale is also the Achilles heel of peer-to-peer file-sharing, because it is vulnerable to litigation and closure. So what happens if the index is itself distributed? I try to get my head around the latest in peer-to-peer file sharing, and explain a bit about what I've learned, including the fact that BitTorrent's power rests in its 'swarm' distribution model, but not necessarily in your end-user download speed. What has this got to do with podcasting? (Answer: invisible P2P plumbing helps the podcasting wheel go round).
[Warning: lengthy article follows].
First, some history
(skip ahead to the next section if you're already bored with the Napster, Gnutella, KaZaa, and BitTorrent saga).
Napster opened our eyes to the power of distributed file sharing on a massive scale. But it was closed down by lawsuits to stop it from listing copyrighted works for which the owners would naturally have preferred to collect royalties (there are thousands of commentaries on the pros and cons of such royalties, but that's not the focus of this posting). Successive generations of tools such as Gnutella, KaZaa, and now BitTorrent have created their own buzz, their own massive followings, their own headaches, and their own solutions to others' headaches. Here's my rundown of the 'big ideas' (and the people behind them):
Napster (Shawn Fanning): This was the Mother of big-time peer-to-peer (P2P) file transfers, i.e. my computer directly to yours, with a central server to maintain lists of who had what in order to initiate the transactions. It had a pretty decent user interface, plus the rapid growth, novelty, excitement and publicity that ensured plenty of good content. Those central server lists, leading to mass free trading of copyrighted material, also led it to be shut down.
Gnutella (Justin Frankel and Tom Pepper, creators of WinAmp): This was an open-source protocol that linked autonomous 'nodes' (users of the network) to other nodes, thereby eliminating the need for a central server list. Searching reliability varies, however, because it is subject to outages according to the connection/disconnection of individual users along the way.
KaZaa (Niklas Zennstrom and Janus Friis, who later created Skype): This technology built on a proprietary protocol called 'FastTrack', conceptually an extension to Gnutella, that deployed distributed 'supernode' search indices whose IP addresses were built in to the software, and which avoided the problems of (i) Napster's centralized lists and (ii) Gnutella's over-distributed nodes suffering outages and weakening the search. The prevalence of built-in 'adware' and the distribution of 'junk files' that masqueraded as originals were two of the weaknesses of the (still) wildly popular KaZaa.
BitTorrent (Bram Cohen): This was the next 'creative leap' in the P2P world, based on the following insight: distributing large files in fragments among large numbers of users, and requiring every downloader to be a partial uploader (of these fragments), enables the 'best of breed' of swarming behaviour -- as a file becomes more popular, so it becomes easier to download, rather than harder (as is the case with traditional file distribution)! A good overview explanation and a helpful analogy are provided in this excerpt from Brian Dessent's BitTorrent FAQ and Guide:
BitTorrent is a protocol designed for transferring files. It is peer-to-peer in nature, as users connect to each other directly to send and receive portions of the file. However, there is a central server (called a tracker) which coordinates the action of all such peers. The tracker only manages connections, it does not have any knowledge of the contents of the files being distributed, and therefore a large number of users can be supported with relatively limited tracker bandwidth. The key philosophy
Re:/.ed already? (Score:2)
Re:/.ed already? (Score:1)
You know, kinda like bittorrent [bittorrent.com]?
Legal uses (Score:5, Insightful)
I grabbed BT for Win2000 and installed it in about 7 minutes, then I hit the torrent link for Knoppix. I was downloading the ISO at around 36KBps (about the limit of my DSL connection).
Since I was heading to bed while it downloaded, I left BT up that night and the next day while I was at work to help other people out.
I had seen BT as a place to snag nothing but rips of movies, and I've stayed away. The legal-usese BT community needs to do a better job of promoting the positive and allowable uses of BT and P2P sharing tools. They have a way to negative stigma right now.
Re:Legal uses (Score:3, Interesting)
I have uploaded 200 gigs of that same music.
http://bt.etree.org
it is a wonderful site with a range of music.
I am not alone in that usage either. people who download pirated material generally dont come to that level (most bittorrent copyright infrigning material is not upwards of 1-5 gigs either, except dvd images)
Re:Legal uses (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Legal uses (Score:2)
Re:Legal uses - DSL: Downloads SLowly (Score:2)
That's about the poorest excuse for a DSL for a Downloads SLowly connection I've ever heard of.
Re:Legal uses - DSL: Downloads SLowly (Score:2)
You're not the only one who thinks it sucks.
Re:Legal uses (Score:5, Informative)
That being said, I agree that Bittorrent needs to be publicized more for its clearly legal uses. I won't say that all multimedia downloading is illegal copyright infringement, but even under the assumption that it is, Bittorrent is still the single best way I know of for widespread legal distribution of large files.
Re:Legal uses (Score:2, Insightful)
Quite impressive, and extremely responsive for being written in Java. Never crashed, eiter.
Re:Legal uses (Score:1)
Reliance on NFOrce.nl is a problem (Score:2)
Bittorrent needs to be publicized more for its clearly legal uses.
I've looked into this, but with Suprnova gone, what's a good reliable tracker for general legit distribution? One problem is that a lot of trackers, especially those using the bytemonsoon code, won't take any torrent submission that doesn't have an entry on NFOrce.nl [google.com], and the NFOrce FAQ [nforce.nl] says that it posts only releases by "legit release group[s]", offering no advice to people outside the so-called "scene" other than the cryptic "pre your
Re:Legal uses (Score:1)
Re:Legal uses (Score:5, Insightful)
I think we'll eventually see something similar here. A distributed distribution network which (i.e. Blockbuster) subscribers can use to download movies to their set-top boxes. And the network would be made up of those set-top boxes, so BB (or whoever) could cheaply distribute the movies that subscribers are requesting.
The success of services like Netflix show that people want delivery. Storefront rental operations have stopped growing except in niche markets. The sooner that the industry in general, and companies like Blockbuster in particular give up their attachment to the physical disk/tape, the better they'll do.
Of course, I like to root for the little guy. Maybe the moment that there's too much competition in the DVD mailer business, Netflix will unveil some secret deal they've worked out with the MPAA and a box they've developed and ship it out to all their customers for free, and it'll contain an embedded BT client for downloading and distributing all the latest cool films...
Re:Legal uses (Score:2)
Re:Legal uses (Score:1)
Peer to Peer is not in any way analogous to a VCR,
Re:Legal uses (Score:2)
VCRs and P2P are absolutely analogous. They are not identical, but they don't need to be in order for people to draw parallels.
Let me spell it out for you: P2P networks are a means of distributing media. Video tapes are a means of distributing media.
The MPAA fought the video tape many years ago. They lost the fight, decided to embrace it instead, and thereby increased revenues by billions rather tha
Re:Legal uses (Score:1)
Well, there are plenty of "legal" uses that are quite popular and widely used. For example, Blizzard distributes all of its patches to World of Warcraft over the BT protocol. If this doesn't show how the community is promoting legal uses of the protoco
Google cache (Score:3, Informative)
Article Text (Score:1, Informative)
BitTorrent, eXeem, Meta-Torrent, Podcasting: "What? So What?"Email This EntryPrint This Entry
Posted by Marc Eisenstadt
SUMMARY: The index that facilitates the sharing of files on a large scale is also the Achilles heel of peer-to-peer file-sharing, because it is vulnerable to litigation and closure. So what happens if the index is itself distributed? I try to get my head around the latest in peer-to-peer file sharing, and explain a bit about what I've learned, including the fact that BitTorr
PARENT IS META-TROLL (Score:2)
Re:Article Text (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Article Text (Score:1)
Re:Article Text (Score:1)
Re:Article Text (Score:1)
Whenever you're talking about kilo, mega, giga, etc, in terms of anything having to do with a computer (bits, bytes, words, double words, whatever), you're talking about POWERS OF 2! Always! Anyone who does otherwise is incorrect or misinformed. A megabit is 2^20 bits. People who do it otherwise are like those sleazy bankers that insist there are only 360 days in the "fiscal" calendar.
Re:Article Text (Score:1)
No big deal... (Score:5, Funny)
That's why I click on every banner I see that says "click here to increase your download speed". I think of them as the little speed boost arrows you could drive over in Excitebike.
--
This is a joke. You have been joked with.
Karma whore (Score:2, Informative)
I OBJECT (Score:3, Interesting)
People were doing that WAY before the ipod came about. and people will be doing it way after the ipod is dust. Why do we need to name something people were already doing after a companies product that DIDNT invent it.
It's like the hype surrounding blogs (woo, a webpage....) except worse because atleast blogging is nominally different (in that it's journal-like) and blogging doesn't have the name of a company embeded in it (I know about blogger.com but they came AFTER blogging).
It's just so lame it makes me have a fit, when people talk about their "podcasting" it makes me want to ram a fist into their trendiod eyesockets and scream into the gooey mess that's left "People were doing it way before you even heard that flaming useless branded buzzword".
just had to get that off my chest.
Re:I OBJECT (Score:1)
What is more recognizable: "podcasting" or "that/it"?
What grates on me is what people are arguing about what to call "that/it". Not to mention mods giving a rant from someone scared to show themselves enough of a bump to get around my filter.
When people start calling it "Anonymous Coward-casting" I'll know where it started.
Re:I OBJECT (Score:2)
Having said that. The name of the Product is iPod not Pod, a "pod" in and on itself is not a product, is it?
re: TrendyCasting? (Score:2)
Broadcasting + iPods = PodCasting.
mini casting (Score:1)
Re:mini casting (Score:1)
This guy doesn't know what he is talking about (Score:5, Interesting)
If he knew anything about BT, he would know that the tracker only introduces peers to each other. The tracker only knows which peers are finished and which aren't. Each peer then manages it's own "fragment-negotiation" which is really just downloading the rarest pieces from it's own point of view. There isn't any negotiation at all, really.
burris
Re:This guy doesn't know what he is talking about (Score:1)
I didn't think the trackers did a lot of work. The whole point of systems like BT isn't really to improve download speed (it's som
Someone please explain to me... (Score:2)
They seem like much the same things, with the exception that if the guy hosting the
(Oh, and the torrents can be sets of files rather than singletons, which is a nice-to-have.)
So why is it that everyone's
Nova (Score:4, Interesting)
So? (Score:1)
That's what this is for
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4149647.stm [bbc.co.uk]
Re:So? (Score:2, Informative)
False advertising! (Score:3, Interesting)
BTW: WTF is podcasting?
Re:False advertising! (Score:1)
Podcasting [ipodder.org] is basically the combination of RSS, mp3, and in some cases, BitTorrent to create a free (as in freedom *and* beer) subscription based, music, or talk-radio type experience. Check it out. There's some really cool tech talk shows I subscribe to. I highly recommend the "Linux Link Tech Show" -- funny commentary on all sorts of tech issues.
Definition of Podcasting from WikiPedia (Score:2)
add BitTorrent to http protocol (Score:4, Interesting)
Then, when a low volume, private site suddenly gets its 15 minutes of fame by being mentioned on Slashdot (or some other well-read news broadcast), it would automatically enlist the horde of new requesting sites to help distribute its content. The rest of the time, both before and after the flash mobbing period, it would just serve its own pages itself in the current manner.
Since it is hard to predict which sites will be "discovered", it would be necessary for all standard servers and browsers support the http protocol extension, so this can't happen without a lot of coordinated work, I'm afraid. The protocol would have to be extended, web servers modified (Apache would e adaquate for a start), browsers modified (Mozilla/Firefox would be adequate for a start). When server was becoming overloaded it woud start by discarding requests from browsers that did not support the protocol, so that it can build up the initial seeding of helper sites. As long as there was more demand than available helpers, these old incapable browsers would continue to get ignored. Once a large enough group of capable helpers was built up to fully support itself, the group could start accepting requests from incapable browsers. That would provide incentive to upgrade older browsers.
Re:add BitTorrent to http protocol (Score:2)
Right now, Slashdot and the people who submit articles can just add
I'd rather see people using that now, or mirrordot, than holding my breath for an http change that may never come or will require some third party software no one will use like the peercasting client.
Crippling upstream BW (Score:2, Insightful)
As businesses, selling bit toting services and desireous of entering the IP content delivery business, this makes sense. Why should users be able to distribute content for free when they can charge for delivery.
As it stands now, live music broadcastss are barely possible using a packet synchrounous distributed network. For top qua
Re:Crippling upstream BW (Score:1)
New Category for P2P? (Score:3, Insightful)
i2p - Please don't mod down till answered (Score:2)
Re:i2p - Please don't mod down till answered (Score:1)
It's just not ready for use yet. Looks promising, but it's not there yet.
Shouldn't that be "researcher?" (Score:1)
"...by research Marc..."
Shouldn't that be:
"...by researcher Marc..."
Ah, grammar and its many uses.
Usually slashdot summerizes articles.... (Score:1)
P2P won't make illegal sharing 'safe' only 'easy' (Score:1)
If the info being transfered is copyrighted then it is not legal for the 'client' to ask for and accept this info nor it is it legal for the 'server' to respond to these requests. If both the 'client' and 'server' are coroporating then this transfer will happen just fine.
If however eit
Re:P2P won't make illegal sharing 'safe' only 'eas (Score:1)
Therefore, no node can be accused of knowingly committing a crime.
See projects MUTE http://mute-net.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]
and ANts http://www.myjavaserver.com/~gwren/home.jsp?page=c ustom&xmlName=ants [myjavaserver.com] for more info
"Centralization" has a purpose (Score:2, Insightful)
The reason is called _control_.
First let me repeat what Bram uses to emphasize on every opportunity: BitTorrent is not a _fil
Re:"Centralization" has a purpose (Score:1)
Sharemail is dead (Score:2)
RSS ended up being the ideal medium for this, instead of email. It uses DNS rather than crypto for authenticating sources, but that's usually good enough.
Signed torrent files can get pretty large for large payloads, as well, making them not only easy to block, but many email services would block them if they were too large
Re:Any article that doesn't mention the problems.. (Score:1)
To cure people of being selfish-bastards, please reboot the univer
Re:Any article that doesn't mention the problems.. (Score:2)
Re:Any article that doesn't mention the problems.. (Score:1)