Journal neocon's Journal: Oh my, oh my... 22
Every thread should have a punchline as good as the one I've been linking to in the past two JE's does.
After post after post in which a particular user has asserted that the story of Onan could not possibly be interpreted as having an anti-contraception message, and that the idea that any Christian might oppose contraception was invented by the Vatican to `keep people in guilt and fear', and but a single post after I linked to evidence that not only has the Catholic church derived this belief from the story of Onan since at least the fifth century, and that many other sects Christian and Jewish hold the same belief, we finally get to see where he's been getting his theological interpretations from.
I'm not a Catholic (though I am a Christian), but if all the church's opponents are as loopy as this, I have no fear of the church being destroyed for many years from now.
Update: don't miss GMontag's latest JE, either. Definitely a winner.
I read this (Score:1)
Re:I read this (Score:2)
As I pointed out at the beginning of this thread [slashdot.org], whether it is theologically a good idea to consider birth control a form of murder is a question we are certainly not about to answer in the course of a single thread in this forum. :-)
What we can simply and conclusively answer is the absurd and bigoted claim which Mr. `Lif' started with, to wit:
As is
Re:I read this (Score:2)
As I pointed out at the beginning of this thread, whether it is theologically a good idea to consider birth control a form of murder is a question we are certainly not about to answer in the course of a single thread in this forum. :-)
Well, you claimed in the beginning of the thread that the Old Testament says that birth control is a form of murder.
As is, I think its easy enough to see that this claims fared about as well as his later claim that condoms are 100% effective
He never said that condoms ar
Re:I read this (Score:2)
Which is exactly what many, many religious sects interpret it to say. Now, it's perfectly reasonably to believe that this is not what the story of Onan means -- but anyone who asserts (as Mr. `Lif' does) that no one else believes this, or that people who do believe that birth control is a form of murder do so for political reasons, and not because they believe that that is what the bible
Re:I read this (Score:2)
Well, you claimed in the beginning of the thread that the Old Testament says that birth control is a form of murder.
Which is exactly what many, many religious sects interpret it to say.
Name a single religious sect, besides Catholicism, which says that "birth control is a form of murder."
Now, it's perfectly reasonably to believe that this is not what the story of Onan means
However, you made the claim that this is what the story of Onan means, a claim which seems completely ridiculous. The story of
Re:I read this (Score:2)
Your attempts to defend your friend (or your other nick's?) odd claims are admirable, I suppose, but let's look how far out on a limb you're going here, shall we?
For example, you start off with:
yet if you'd read the thread you would know that many Jews [jewfaq.org] believe this. Here are two more religions which believe this:
But wait -- there's more. You then p
Re:I read this (Score:2)
yet if you'd read the thread you would know that many Jews believe this.
I see no mention of murder in any of those links. These sects may be against birth control, but that's not the same as saying that it is murder.
And why do you claim that this is somehow a consistent position? Because this ``getting through'' in ten percent (!) of cases would occur through a `break' and not a `hole' -- as if a hole was anything but a small breakage!
It doesn't happen in 10% of all cases. You misread that part.
As
Re:I read this (Score:2)
While it is true that not all sects which see the story of Onan as anti-contraception also see it as equating contraception with murder, it is also true that many do. We can see, for example, that the Calvinists believe this strongly, for John Calvin wrote, in his Commentaries on Genesis [gospelcom.net]:
Re:I read this (Score:2)
But perhaps you will tell us that Mr. Calvin, one of history's great opponents of the Catholic church, was also taking orders from `the Vatican'?
Look I never made that claim. You're confusing me with someone else. In any case, I see how you could interpret Calvin's statment as making birth control equivalent to murder. I don't think that's exactly what he was saying, but close enough. You've adequately answered my question (read my posts, that's all it was, a question for clarification).
And why do
Re:I read this (Score:2)
I think you'd better run through that math again -- go
Re:I read this (Score:2)
If, for the sake of Mr. `Lif', we take the WHO's number of `ten percent' of cases instead of fifteen (assuming the Guardian quoted them correctly), that's still a long way from ``can't get through'', no?
No. It's not. You misinterpreted him.
Whether semen ``goes through'' a large tear or a small one, it still ``goes through'' -- and the NIH numbers suggest that that occurs in fifteen, not zero, percent of cases.
Like I said, you are arguing semantics. I don't consider condom breakage as HIV going thr
Re:I read this (Score:2)
Good enough for me -- if your position is actually that semen leaking through a micrscopic (or larger) break in a condom is not ``going through'' that condom, I think people reading this thread can figure out what to make of your arguments.
Of course, this raises interesting questions of language indeed -- when we through a brick ``through'' a window, it actually goes through a whole broken in that window. When we shoot a bullet ``through'' a paper target, it actually goes through a whole which it rips
Re:I read this (Score:1)
Re:I read this (Score:1)
Re:I read this (Score:2)
Re:I read this (Score:2)
Go read the thread -- in addition to claiming that no religions believe that the bible opposes contraception, Mr. `Lif' also asserted that HIV ``can't get through'' a condom.
Re:I read this (Score:2)
Re:I read this (Score:1)
Biblical Interpretation... (Score:2)
So Onan did s