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Vermont and real change
Testing can show the presense of bugs, but not their absence. -- Dijkstra
Testing can show the presense of bugs, but not their absence. -- Dijkstra
Moo (Score:1)
Interesting.
Interesting (Score:1)
Now what's really interesting here, is that we have had secession talk all over for a number of years. Usually the far left dismisses all this talk because it comes from like "the south" or "out west" so they call it whacko, racist, etc, basically a red state/rural folks bias. They haven't even bothered much to really LOOK at the issues, just dismiss it out of hand. Silly if ya ask me, there's some radical but decent logic to all of this talk. They have a harder time doing that instant dismissal now that a
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I think we want more of the union than we realize. However, as the federal government takes over more and more of state's rights, some states want to push back. Unfortunately, they have little power, and the o nly way to force your own will is to be sovereign. Secede, then make deals. Exactly like you said.
Though, if other state do really talk about this, and they do get together, they could start voting in bloc. That is, if all the representatives of Texas, Hawaii, Vermont, and any other state talking abou
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As Vermont currently receives [taxfoundation.org] around $1.08 in Federal spending per tax dollar they pay, secession would be a net gain for the rest of us. I'll say to the Vermont secessionists (all dozen of them) what I say to all the other nutjobs who want to leave the Union: I'd love to see you leaches make it on your own and stop mooching off of the rest of us. Funny thing, you never see anyone from a state like New York ($0.79 Federal revenue per tax dollar paid) or California ($0.78) talking about secession, it's alway
Proud to be a nutjob! (Score:1)
sniff...sniff..brings a tear to me eye and stuff...I guess I am one of those nutjobs who would "chance it". Especially if that meant a different currency, actually backed by something, and a real Constitution with real carved in stone born with rights.
You can stay stuck to the FRN forever, and the crooks, liars, thieves and international murderers that represents... but I would rather another option, something with a bit more engineering tech and science and just plain brains to its design, with mor
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You think it would be easier to leave the Union than to fix it? You think the corporations wouldn't move right in and own your tiny little state? Most multinationals could likely buy and sell Vermont a dozen times over.
Look, I feel your pain at being part of a corrupt and corrupting system, I just don't think leaving the Union is going to do for you what you think it will. Corporations have too much power, they can talk to more people more quickly than you can, and they have no conscience so they feel no q
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Corporations would have to individually incorporate if the states went back to being independent nations. They couldn't just slap a filing fee in delaware or nevada and say they are gold to go anywhere and do whatever they wanted to do. Plus, we would have a choice then..some states WOULD be seriously stricter about corporations, others..would let them run roughshod, but you as an individual could then choose based on some choices like that. as it is now..we have no real choice, it doesn't matter where you
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And corrupted by money interests. Time to fork the republic! And go back to one that's free with open govt. that does not consume all your resources! :)
I used to fantasize about what it might be like if America split down Left/Right lines, but I think I might opt to go live with Vermont Liberals. Let the Progressives and neo-Cons (i.e. fascist Left and Right) have their half of the country, and all the intrusion and strong, centralized control they favor,
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This is the American libertarian fantasy: if we just got rid of the Fed, all of a sudden we'd be twenty times wealthier. I don't think it works like that.
The other problem with the whole idea is that leading individualist anarchists and libertarians is like herding cats. I've listened to libertarians talk about the free state project for decades, and nothing ever comes of it. As far as unity of purpose goes, libertarians are worse than democrats.
we'll see what happens (Score:1)
The USA is going to collapse, same as the USSR did, either way. None of the numbers add up, beyond bankruptcy. Either numerous states will walk away, or the economy implodes so much we have interesting times and social unrest and the feds try to hold it together with extreme sanctions and violence.
I think it is better to have a planned orderly rearrangement.
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Oh, hey, planning for an orderly rearrangement is not stupid. However, in the event you foresee, Vermont trying to leave the union is just the kind of social unrest the fed has a proven history of using extreme sanctions and violence to hold together. Even assuming, somehow, Vermont managed to do it before the collapse, it would provide the perfect excuse during said collapse for the fed to go hog wild. Good luck with that...
However, I think the idea of any state seceding is a pipe dream along the lines of
when you will see it (Score:1)
You'll see the sentiment change when the great flight from the dollar on the international scene occurs. It's starting now, a trickle, but it will flood eventually. As soon as printed up paper stops buying so much imports, and quality of life drops like a stone, and millions more lose their jobs..meaning more people losing their homes to the scam banksters with their fractional reserve loans...you'll see the sentiment shifting radically fast.
The USSR broke apart when they hit a tipping edge l
At first I thought Vermont, too small (Score:2)
But if they're willing to return to a 1791 lifestyle and then work their way back up from there- well, it was a Republic of it's own before, and could be again.
But I think I'd rather have the vast natural resources of Cascadia to play with- we've got our own oil wells, heavy metal mines, gold mines, and a huge agricultural infrastructure.
Misc comments from a Vermont resident (Score:2)
When I first arrived, in the late 70s, I was told that you're not a Vermonter until you have 5 generations in the dirt. That means my wife isn't a Vermonter either, since she only has 3 generations in the dirt - before that they lived in Ireland and France.
Personally, I don't hear much, if anything, about the secessionist movement. There was a bit of noise about it for the bicentennial of the US Constitution, but at that time it was a rhetorical exercise to demonstrate why we should remain in the US.
Minor
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You moved there roughly a little before I did, but I didn't stay long, just half a year, but I liked it a lot. I lived outside of st. albans way up this steep mountain. Had a job at a ski resort, then *no snow* I mean, no snow at all, too warm, it would snow then melt fast, something like 55 degrees on christmas day. There was one week where it got real cold, below zero cold, then it just got warm again and stayed that way. Made rabbit hunting easy, all those jack rabbits had turned white and it was easy to
whoa! (Score:1)
Excuse me for not getting around the country much (have lived all of my 43 years of life so far here in California), but I read with wonder in that first linked article of this certain subspecies of Leftie who's "left-libertarian" and anti- Big Government!!! Wow, we ain't got none of that kind out here in California. And the people of Mass. in the recent senatorial election was a big surprise to me as well. So the East Coast has Liberals who are actually liberal? And not the fascist, blame-America-first typ
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I'm in WA state, that pretty much describes me. Describes a lot of people I know too.
Cali does some good things, but their state government is far too big.
Liberal state gun laws (Score:1)
Here are the possession and concealed carry gun laws for Vermont, bracketed [ ].
For real. You got to screw up bad there to get denied your second amendment born with right to "keep and bear". Only Alaska and Vermont have a real second amendment, every place else has some sort of permit-ission for a born with right.
So ya, it exists. Scofflaw pot smokers and gun totin hippies, nudists walking downtown (in brattleboro anyway), food co-ops normal, anti war sentiment high, people who just want big bro out of you