Laser Vision Correction?

Here's another query from Yet Another Anonymous Coward: "I have been considering laser vision correction for quite some time. However, I can't seem to find anyone who can give me a straight answer on what is involved, what it costs, etc. Has anyone had the surgury, or know where I can find information on it? "

Well...

[p0six]

I was talking about this with a friend just the other day. Why bother correcting your vision with surgery now, if you're just going to screw it up again staring at computers?

Costs, etc

[Uruk]

I had a friend who had laser vision correction.

It cost him about $1,200 per eye, (it's done on a per eye basis) but I think it can probably get cheaper than that depending on where you go.

He LOVED it after he had had it done, although he did say that it felt very disgusting as it was actually happnening. (Peeling of the cornea, reshaping, and replacing, I believe)

He did have to go for a touch up operation about 6 months after he got it done originally, and that was a bit annoying but free.

I had a discussion with him the other day about it - he thinks it was worth it although I've heard of other people who have had to have touch up operations as well.

I'm betting that it would save money over the long term, and I'm considering it now myself, but coughing up the cash in the first place can be hard. (For some people, anyway. :)

Not me, but...

[ucblockhead]

I can't vouch for it personally, but when my Yoga instructor had the surgery about a month ago, two other people piped up that they'd had it, and loved it. I'm currently saving up.

It cost her $4200, and she was out for less than a week.

laser vision

[tmuller]

Laser Vision involves a simple procedure that takes around 4 hours (last time I looked). It involves shaping your eyes to focus the light correctly on the back of your eye. The costs vary and the doctors here in the states haven't been doing it much over 5 years. I talked to an eye doctor about it and I found out some of the costs: 2k / eye if you go to a GOOD doctor, maybe less for a different one. He also told me that if he was going to have it done, he would persue a doctor in Canada (supposively they don't have the restrictions on research like we do here and have been using this since the late 80's). My suggestion is to go to a local eye doctor and quiz him on it. They should have brochures and such to give you if you are a canidate for the surgery. P.S. First post. Troy

General Information

[elfbabe]

Time Magazine [time.com] did a story on it just a little while ago. The general consensus seemed to be that most of the time it's absolutely wonderful, while the rest of the time it really, really screws your eyes up.

Marissa

Re:Costs, etc

[Wakkow]

From what I've read/heard, the "touchup" is done so they never go "too far" in the surgery.. They can "touchup" and do a little bit more, but never take back what has already been done..

Daniel

Guinea Pig

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't do it just yet!!! Quite a number of people have had the negative effect of seeing halos when looking at light and some have even reported having worse eyesight after the surgery. I know the numbers are small, but it could happen to YOU!

amdalhs law (sp?)

[orz]

Laser vision is still under the influence of Amdals Law (spelling?). It's improving geometrically. Considering that it's wetware not hardware, I'd wait for things to slow down a little.

My Dad had it done

[Frampton]

My Dad had the procedure about a year ago, and it worked great for him. He had it done at Kaiser Permanente in Arleta, CA. The procedure cost him $2500, and it was worth it for him. This is how the procedure is done, its actually pretty simple. You are awake through it all. They cut your cornea off with a laser, rotate it, then set it back on the eye. And thats it. My Dad had to have his right eye done twice because of an astigmatism. He said he felt no pain, it was just a wierd experience is what he said. It took him about 2 weeks before he could see properly (mostly because of the astigmatism) but now that both eyes are healed he sees fine. He is a graphic artist, so he used to have to wear glasses all the time while working on images, but no longer. And now the only time he needs to wear glasses is to read real small print, anything smaller then newspaper print.
I also have a friend who's mother had it done, and she healed fine in about 2 days. Both my Dad and my friends mother have a reported 20/20 vision, and they are both very happy that they had it done. Oh, they both went to the same hospital to have it done.

I have heard that it is not always perfect

[chirayu]

Sometimes teh eye fights back and you will have
to wear those specs. There is a new technology (dont remember hte name) where they insert a lens in the eye and it can be removed if there is change in the vision. Totally undestruvtive as compared to laser correction.

CP

Talk to the Doc himself

[KingJawa]

Dr. Carmen Puliafito, the director of opthomology at the New England Medical center, is perhaps the best in the nation.

He even offered baseball umpires a free checkup and surgery if needed.

Puliafito's contact info is here [nemc.org].

The article about the umps is here [go.com].

Try asking Weird Al?

[Mark Edwards]

Not being entirely flip, but Weird Al Yankovic has apparently had the surgery. if you went to his site [weirdal.com] and emailed him, he might answer. He seems enough like a regular guy...

Mark Edwards [mailto]
Proof of Sanity Forged Upon Request

rods

[eyd]

I can give no URLs to back this up, but I can tell you what I've seen on TV and heard from my doctor. With laser surgery and radial caratonomy (sp?) the percentages aren't that great. If I remember right, it's like 20% get 20/20, 60% get better vision (not perfect, somewhere between their old vision and 20/20), and 20% get worse (!!) vision. The newest surgery is different. I can't recall what it's called, but they cut two slits in the corners and slide somewhat rigid rods into the cornea to reshape it. As it's fairly new, I haven't seen stats on the success rate of this surgery, but it's supposed to be high. It is also reversible. I was told that it was about $2000 or $3000 per eye, but I'm sure it will go down as it becomes more common...or is replaced by a better option.

Laser Is the way to go

[EdotOrg]

I had my eyes laser vision corrected about 1 year ago now, and I have had no regrets whatsoever. I used to have 20/400 in the left and 20/175 in the right, but since the surgery I now have a stable 20/20 in both eyes.

If you've never had to wear glasses or contacts you can't even imagine the feeling of being able to SEE normally for the first time ever! You walk around all day thinking about all the things you can see now for the first couple of months.

Mine cost about $2400 per eye, including free checkups and free enhancements should the surgery not take completely. I know you can probably get it for "real cheap" someplace else, but step back a minute and think how much that $5000 is really worth. What is that..

1) Room and board for a few months?
2) A piece of crap car?
3) Mebbe a few new computers?
or
4) Perfect vision, all day, everyday, for the rest of your life.

Hehe. I can't push it enough; mortage the house, sell your soul, go get it done.

Re:laser vision

[tmuller]

And what else was I referring to? LASIK is the only way to go. See your doctor.

Re:Laser Is the way to go

[Listerine]

Maybe I'll sell the Internet to get my eyes fixed.

Re:General Information

[StenD]

My concern is, do they know the long term effects? Until they've been doing the procedure longer than my life expectancy, I'll stick with glasses.

Doesn't always work.

[Chris Pruett]

I know many people who've had it done and I myself have had it done in one eye.

Everyone else I know was elated with the results.

I, however, am left with irregular astigmatism in my eye. Basically, I see double out of one eye. That sucks. I'd rather be nearsighted. It's basically untreatable except (maybe) with a hard contact. I can see better than before, without contacts, but not as good as when I had my contacts in. Now, I won't risk my right eye.

Bottom line: it's a low risk but there is still a risk. It's your eyesight. As long as you are awake and have your eyes open a PRK or LASIK fuckup will be right there bugging you. Every single minute.

Personally, if I had it to do over again I would stick with my contacts. Maybe in a few years technology will advance to the point where they can fix my messed-up eye and reduce the risk from low to astronomically low. Until then, forget it.

BE CAREFUL!

[Pulsar]

My mom has worked for an optomologist (sp!?) for over 12 years and he refuses to do the surgery because there is still an alarming number of patients who report their vision degenerating years after the surgery. There's not enough long term data yet to really know what's going on. Plus, even if you get the surgery, you're still predisposed to needing bifocals or readers once you get a bit older...

New Technology

[IanCarlson]

LASIK vision correction has only been around for a bit. I've heard great things, and occasionally a terrible thing or two. The procedure is no more dangerous than, say, having your appendix taken out. As a matter of fact, "Weird Al" Yankovic recently had his eyes zapped (and was quite happy with it). I got the chance to watch an operation preformed on a woman. It doesn't seem to be for the faint of heart. Her eyes were taped (to keep her from blinking) and she kept repeating "There's something wrong with my eyes" the whole time. She turned out fine. Also, chance of relapse into poor vision is slim.

In my area (Virginia Beach), LASIK is done on the cheap, which makes me wonder how much of a guniea pig you really are when you have this done.

But, the bottom line is, if you're the daring sort and have the $500 - $2,000 (per eye) to blow, go for it. With a little luck, you'll turn out better than you were before. But, be warned, problems do occur, and you may want to hold off on the procedure for another year or two.

Time.

[Signal 11]

Time magazine has an excellent writeup in this month's edition about LASIC surgery. I believe this link [time.com] will get you where you need to go, but I don't read Time very often (too conservative).

In a nutshell, it's still an infant technology, and the recommendation is to wait. If you can't wait, find a good doctor, and be sure to ask what his/her complication rate is - if he won't tell you drop him like a Intel 820 chipset.

There are quite a few complications.. and most people experience the so-called "halo" effect for several months after receiving the surgery. You'll also typically have to undergo multiple surgeries - mainly to "fine-tune" your vision. The procedure also isn't guaranteed to have you seeing 20/20... although between 20/20 and 20/40 is common. Some people (although uncommon) even get their vision corrected to better than normal.. as good as 20/10.

--

Two points

[MaximumBob]

First off, my dad had it maybe four years ago, and it seemed to work pretty well for him. His night vision, however, is shot to hell. I don't know if that is related to the surgery or not, though.

Secondly, check with your health insurance provider. Under our health insurance, the surgery was covered.

Try This...

[methuseleh]

Try Dr. Edell's site [healthcentral.com] He's a former opthamologist, is pretty credible, and isn't trying to sell anything (except his book and his website). He should have some good info there. IFAIK, he's pretty positive about PK and LASIK.

BTW, PK (Photo Keratectomy, I think) is where they just burn the surface of the cornea with the laser. LASIK is where they slice a flap off the cornea, which is left attached by a little "hinge". They then burn the cornea to reshape it, then fold the flap back over. This apparently speeds healing and helps prevent infection and other complications. "Burn," BTW, is a bit of a misnomer, but you understand.

--

research

[willhelm]

Time magazine did a good article in October:

http://www.pa thfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,31865,0 0.html [pathfinder.com]

I was thinking about doing Lasik. I had three friends who did. 1 did great and loves it. 1 sees halos at night and glare, but loves it anyways. And i never talk to the third guy because he was such a loser.

After reading a lot of stuff, and then the Time article, I decided I'll just stick with my glasses with the tape on the bridge. I think it adds a lot to my overall seductive and erotic image, anyhow.

/will

Re:BE CAREFUL!

[Pulsar]

Oh, and I almost forgot...I was talking to an air force recruiter once and he said that the armed forces in the US will NOT allow you to pilot a jet if you've had any such surgery. Apparently they don't trust it either.

better than normal vision

[dragontails]

Numerous people have reported that after getting laser eye surgery done they could see far better than they ever had with glasses (or before they needed glasses). Someone did a study on it and discovered that as a result of the lasering, they were given 20/10(?) vision. It was on a tv or radio report (I don't recall) recently. There should be a web article on this somewhere.

Re:Well...

[Signal 11]

It's a myth that sitting in front of computers will "screw up your vision". There's another similar myth that says watching TV in the dark or sitting too close does the same thing. Both have been largely disproved.

I say largely because while your eyes aren't affected, your muscles are.. and they are responsible for up to 20% of your visual acuity if memory serves. So it's a good idea to take frequent breaks (for a variety of reasons - not just for your eyes), look away from the monitor every now and then (look far away, wait, look back) to get those muscles working, and eat a normal diet. The last one will work wonders for your energy levels and stuff... I find alot of geeks have less than stellar diets.. myself included. disclaimer: I'm a coder, not a doctor jim!

Hope you found this useful....

--

Contact problems

[QuasEye]

One thing to consider is that sometimes the surgery doesn't correct your vision 100%. I don't know about LASEK (sp?) but I know that Radial Karatotomy makes it impossible to wear contact lenses afterward. This would mean, then, that you might still need vision correction after the surgery, but your options would be limited to glasses.

bp

65 year old PHB

[jdub!]

My 65 year old pointy-haired boss had his eyes corrected using laser surgery here in Australia.

It was pretty expensive, but the results were incredible - one week with glasses, the next... *GONE*

He used to wear just under a centimetre thick glasses (and no, I'm not exagerrating, they looked about that). One Friday he went into surgery, having been told that everything would be a little blurry for a couple of days. On Monday, he was fine! He just said that it was lucky he did it before the weekend, because he couldn't have worked otherwise.

So, yeah... It works. He now doesn't need his glasses for most things, and he's getting weak ones for important stuff like driving (and using the 12" monitor he insists on keeping on his desk!) - and this is a guy who's been wearing glasses for the better part of forty years!

It could work, but...

[bgdarnel]

As others have said, this technology is not perfect. www.surgicaleyes.org [surgicaleyes.org] is a site that aims to inform people of the risks of eye surgery. Read and think about the information there before deciding if it's worth the risk.

On the other hand, the one person I know personally who had laser eye surgery (I think it was LASIK) loved it. He had both eyes done on Friday and was back to work on Monday.

Laser Correction

[criminy]

My wife is a GP, so she gets all the info on this stuff. I read an article in a journal which indicated that there was quite a high incidence of "loss of best-corrected vision", which essentially means that you can lose your glasses/contacts, but your sight will never be as good as it was when you had your glasses on.
It went on to suggest that it is a good procedure for the general populace, but was not recommended for people who need fine-detailed vision and those who stare at VDUs all day.
It is likely that as the procedure is developed further, these issues will be overcome.
Wait a few years, when the procedure is better understood & controlled, and the risks are lower, you'll be better off. When it comes to you sight, it's probably not a good idea to be an "early adopter".

Consumer Reports article

[cph]

Consumer Reports ran an article on this in their June 1999 issue. I read the article and found it pretty scary. Basically, most people who have the surgery are fine, but perhaps 10% develop unusual visual aberrations that may/may not be worse than the nearsightedness. The article also contained a handful of URLs with more extensive information to allow you to make up your own mind whether the risks are worth it.

I highly recommend reading this article before you make this decision.

Procedure confusion

[cro]

In reading the posts here I've noticed some confusion about the procedures involved. Some people are confusing RK with LASIKs. The poster wants to know about LASIKs. RK is indeed unstable--in fact there was a man on the tragic expedition to Mt. Everest (the one written up in Reader's Digest a couple of years ago & I think was dramatized in the IMAX movie) who had RK done, and when he got within a few thousand yards of the summit the low atmospheric pressure at that altitude caused the surfaces of his eyes to rupture at the scar points. That was several years after the surgery! There is other research that says within 10 years some RK patients start to get farsighted and don't stop. LASIKs is still far too new for us to know what the recipients will experience 15 years from now. However, don't wait too long. My eye doctor told me that I should have it done before age 35. After that, your eyes take a lot longer to heal.

night vision probs

[chrisperfer]

Hi

I was about ready to do it myself, and had been planning for this winter (there are many activities that you can't do within 3 or 6 months of the surgery, incl scubadiving or general watersports (i like to kayak), so i wanted to time it so that it wouldnt impact fun things).

However, i started to read some alarming things about it. While the percentages of people who have markedly improved vision is high, and quite a high percentage of those end up with 20/20 vision, what isnt often quoted is that a large percentage of people have significantly worsened night vision, permanently. Many people are no longer able to drive at night at all.

My night vision is already not so hot. Also, if your vision isnt stable, it will of course continue to not be stable after your surgery. This is also a problem i have been having, though at least my vision has been improving.

There are several alternative surgery technologies that show great promise and less risk that have not been approved yet. Things are changing so fast that it just seems prudent to not take such a risk until the techniques are more mature...

Sorry i dont have pointers to where I read this stuff or actual facts and figures. That time magazine cover from a few weeks ago was worth reading. If I were you, though, I would hesitate to make such a huge decision based on anecdotal evidence and on an immature technology, when things are changing so rapidly...

just my 2c

-chris

Not without risk

[demigod]

A friend of my just had this done to both eyes and is very happy with the results.

I mentioned this to my wife and she told me the sad tail of her hairdressers husband (..wifes hairdressers husband ... Is there any chance it's either true or accurate?)

It seems the assistant who setup/calibrated the machine got one of the factor wrong and what was suppose to be a -2.5 became 2.5. So instead of making his vision better it made it worse, much worse.

After three month and two more sugeries to try to correct the damage he is still legally blind and out of work.

And now for the morle of the story: Don't do both eyes at once.

"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."

Re:laser vision

[Macphisto]

There was an article in Time on this very subject a week or two ago - and there is a heavy bias towards LASIK (laser-aided in situ something keratomy..), which is great for people with really severe myopia (-6 or worse), severe farsightedness, or anything more than a touch of astigmatism. For everybody else, like people such as myself who are in the -5 range with no astigmatism, PRK (photo-refractive keratomy) seems to be the way to go. LASIK puts you in the hands of a surgeon, a competent one hopefully, but a human nonetheless. PRK is done with a computer-programmed excimer laser. It's not as likely to put you into the coveted +/-0.5 range as LASIK, and won't do much for astigmatism, but there are always fix-ups, and you don't need to worry about a surgeon having a bad day and digging out your cornea.

Obviously, PRK isn't a panacea, and there is plenty of room for human error, but I just don't see any reason to go with LASIK over PRK. LASIK is invasive, runs the risk of epithelial cell ingrowth into the cut, and hasn't been around for as long.

Am I missing something, or are there any other reasons to go with LASIK? From my research, PRK is the way to go.

I was just talking to my eye doctor about this...

[cgray4]

...and he said that

• I should wait until I'm at least 25 because a person's eyes have the potential to change until that age.
• Even with laser eye surgery, I would probably still have to come in at least once a year to get a new reading glass prescription.
• The technology is not perfected yet, and there are some really hack operators out there, so you have to be careful about where you go.

When I consider how much I read, it probably makes more sense just to stick with the glasses and contacts.

Laser Vision Correction

[Anonymous Coward]

My dad recently had this procedure done. Here
are a few facts about it that a recall:

Laser vision has a very high success rate. Most
people that have it will be able to pass their
drivers test(20/40 vision). People who don't
get that level of correction generally at least
have some type of correction.

Their is a small percentage of people that could
loose their vision, or will not have the
procedure have much effect. In many cases,
the procedure can cause far-sightedness(?),
at an earlier age than usuall.

The cost is generally around $1,000 - $2,000 per
eye. It is very important that before having
the procedure you are at least 21, and have had
a stable correction perscription. There are
several types of laser vision correction, some
have very low recovery times(1-2days) others
have a bit longer(40 days).

For my dad, the procedure was a complete success.
He went from legally blind to having excellent
vision that is better than mine, I have heard of
a few other things besides laser vision, but
it is one of the most successfull. The most
interesting other method I've heard about is
a lense worn a night, that causes the cornea
of the eye to reshape.

No Hurry

[Skyshadow]

Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.

However, unless there's some compelling reason (approaching blindness, you're a football player, etc.) why you need to lose the glasses/contact and quick, I don't see a reason to rush into what seems to be still a rather immature area of medicine.

Glasses and contacts are a hassle, but the unknown long-term effects of laser vision correction should scare the bejezus out of you -- what would you do for a living if your eyes didn't work right ten years from now? The point is, we have thousands of years experience with letting eyesight get gradually worse, and we can generally predict when things about about to go seriously wrong. Until you get to that point, why risk something so important?

That said, I must admit that I dream about the day that I'll be able to wake up in the morning and see my clock again (without accidently leaving my contacts in, that is). Never having to clean my glasses or deal with a cat hair on my contact ever again is a really appealing prospect. Just not sp appealing that I'd risk making my situation worse.

----

Successful correction in Canada

[perlfool]

My wife had LASIK done on both eyes about three months ago in Canada at Lexington LaserVision (877-202-0123).

The cost is much cheaper in Canada, $1000 for both eyes. The cost was finally in a range that we could afford so we took the trip from Seattle to Vancouver.

We spent about 1.5 hours in their office and when she came out her eyes were stinging a bit and sensitive to the light but she could see with out her glasses. (She got to wear those cool sun glasses.) They recommended taking a nap after the surgery so she did. After the nap, her eyes felt much better and she could see great. (Her eyes were in the range of 20/400 or so before the surgery.) The only problem she had was a little bit of a star effect at night. The next morning at the checkup, her vision was at 20/25 and most of the stinging was gone.

At her 1 month appointment she could see 20/20 and there was no more star effect at night. The only complaint she has is her eyes are dry and she is supposed to use some special eye drops for a while.

She would do it again in an instant.

One interesting thing to note is not everyone who goes to have the proceedure is able to get it done due to some thinness in their cornea. While I was waiting for my wife, a young lady was rejected at the clinic due to a thin cornea. I was suprised they did not catch it at the pre-operative eye exam. This also happened to a neighbor of mine. The clinic ended up paying for their hotel stay for the hastle in getting to Vancouver.

corneal ring implants

[hlsiv]

You're probably thinking of corneal ring implants. They insert a small (clear) plastic ring that changes the shape of the lens if I remember correctly. Last I heard, which was probably two or three years ago, it was in limited clinical trials.

Re:I was actually thinking about getting this done

[RedOctober]

Getting this done to whom?

LASIK vision correction, for and against

[Tsuran]

I've been thinking of having LASIK surgery on my (pitifully myopic monitor-induced) eyes, and as such, have done a good bit of research.

The basic upshot is that there's about a 75-85 percent chance that your vision will improve to 20/40. Past that, the odds decrease, but are at about 40-60 percent for 20/20 vision. For a list of statistics, go here. [lzr.com]

Side effects can include halos around bright lights, starburst effects, and other interesting visual abnormalities. They tend to go away in a few weeks to a few months.

The procedure itself is very quick, and takes about 15 min per eye. For a pretty good description of the procedure, check out this page [fast.net], about halfway down.

If you do read one page on the subject, let it be this one [aol.com]. This page presents a negative viewpoint on LASIK surgery, with some statistics, problems, etc. I intend to have this done, but I'd still read this to make very sure that you comprehend the risks.

Price can range anywhere from $1200-$2500, depending on the place. The one I'm looking at is about $1650/eye. Most places include "touch-up" procedures (ie, the eye reshaped itself and needs re-lasering) for free in a 1-2 year period. Make sure you check about this.

Most places will allow you to watch a procedure, if you're curious. Might be a smart thing to do.

Another good place for information is the Yahoo! category [yahoo.com] dealing with the subject. Lots of good links here.

Tsu

Easy to find horror stories online

[Anonymous Coward]

Start at www.surgicaleyes.com. I was interested in this surgery, until I heard some of the horror stories. The risk is moderate, and probably acceptible for some people. The long-term consequences of reshaping the cornea are simply unknown, though. It's a real catch-22: If you're going to have surgery like this, the best time is when you're younger. The younger you are, the better the eye heals (also less chance of complications). But it will be many years before there's information on the long-term safety. And that's the real unknown: is this going to precipitate cataracts or other problems 20 years down the road? The most advanced (and most desirable) procedures simply haven't been in use long enough to generate that kind of clinical data. The eye surgeons really dropped the ball with conventional RK a few years back. I personally won't trust my eyes to them until I'm sure they have learned from past mistakes.

It is on his FAQ already

[agent]

http://www.weirdal.com/aa.htm

Keep your priorities straight

[coyote-san]

I had the LASIK procedure done, and I went from "must wear contacts since glasses cut off air supply," (-6.5 diopter contacts) to 20/25 or 20/30 - which is exactly right. (A reputable doctor won't aim for 20/20 in someone pushing forty because they're going to naturally become a bit farsighted in the next few years, so I should hit 20/20 in a few years.) I also had a modest amount of astigmatism which they completely eliminated.

My advice to anyone considering LASIK surgery is to whack yourself on the head a few times with a 2x4 until you get your priorities straight.

You do NOT want to make this decision on the basis of price. I paid $5000 (both eyes, plus followups), which was the usual price quoted by reputable doctors in this area.

I could have saved a thousand dollars or two... if I was willing to have my eyes operated on by the guy who wasn't making royalty payments on his laser gear. I think my doctor said that saved him $500 or so a pop -- but it also meant that his gear wasn't getting serviced. Maybe the laser delivering less power than he thought, or more. Or maybe it was randomly mixing the two. Any variation will make it much harder to get predictable results.

Or I could have saved some money by going with the guys who had just gotten back from their seminar and were excited at getting into the exciting new world of laser surgery.

During one of my follow up visits (and with myopia this severe it took me several weeks before I could drive at night or read the newspaper without reading glasses) my doctor (not the laser guy, but the glasses guy I have seen for a decade) mentioned that he had lunch with a peer a few weeks earlier. My vision, at the time, was still a little off but it was clearly getting better every time I came in. His peer's patient started out with slightly better vision than me, but she went to a cheaper doctor and one eye had severe astigmatism and her other eye was severely overcorrected -- and LASIK correction for farsightedness is far more invasive.

The point should be clear: PRICE IS THE LEAST OF YOUR WORRIES. Most people are focused on the "reasonable best" that can happen (e.g., "gee, I should have 20/25 vision and not need glasses"), and not on the "reasonable worst". An experienced doctor with good corporate support might have a "reasonable worst" that you'll still need (thin) glasses at times, but you won't have major vision problems. An inexperienced doctor or even an experienced one cutting corners may have a "reasonable worst" that you'll be overcorrected (farsighted), have bad astigmatism, or worst.

Is fucked up vision for the rest of your life really worth pennies per day? ($1000/40 years is $25/year, or something like 8c/day.)

Ive Had it Done

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I have Had LASIC Done. I Had it Done about 16 months Ago, And Can Say It Was worth it. here is the basic procedure. You show up to a satalite office, they take an image scan of your eye right there, look at it for 5 minutes, and tell you if you are a candidate. they give you a price, you say yes or no (mine was 2K per eye) You show up next free time they have and they put some eye drops in, rescan, some more tests, and send you on your way very suspectable to sunlight. you show up at the lazer center a week later, they make you ait 20 minutes, put you in anoter waiting room and give you a relaxant. then you wait 20 more min, go into the lazer room, lie down and they put in local anastetic. they peel back your lens, and use a lazer (computer controlled) to burn your cornea into shape. YOUR job is to look into the light, the docotr pushed the button when your eye is lined up, your eyes drift, he reminds you, you look back, one eye done, next, all done. you put on some goggles, are alked to your ride, and go home. you can open your eyes, but it is blurry from tearing,m but clear you are tired, go to bed, wake up the next day, go back. he takes off hte goggles, checks your vision, you cna see fine. he hands you eye drops for two weeks, and tells you to not touch your eyes, and wear the goggles at night for a week. you have an appointment after 1 week, 1 month, 3 months, then a year all for checkeups, all included. benefits: you can now see, and if you are less then 20/40 they will do an adjustment 6 montha later for free. you dont have to pay for contacts or glasses for a couple of years, you look less like a nerd to your college buddies and women. disadvantages: OLD technology had a small radius burn. if your pupil went larger then then burn area (at night) things got blurry and you would see halos. With NEW Stuff this doesnt happen. MAKE SURE TO ASK!!!! (if your center can do both short and long range vision problems odds are they are using the new stuff) Nothing is gureanteed, eyes change over time, thats why perscription changes. I personally can still see, and in one eye it has improved since then actually. This unfortunately also kills alot of military service things because of it is untested. Notes: ASK ALOT OF QUESTIONS!!!! ask to talk to someone which they have performed it on. DONT go cheap. ask their success rates. ask what happens if they ruin your vision. remember, thousands of peple get into accidents while driving, but you still drive.... look at the ratio of success to failure for your local doctor and decide for yourself. LASIC is the newest and best technology, dont do anythign less.

Nothing wrong with glasses!

[root]

Really! Why risk (ALL surgery has risks) messing up your eyes when glasses or even contacts, if you're concerned about appearance, can clear things up just fine?

Besides, I think girls look sexier with glasses than without. :)

Re:Nothing wrong with glasses!

[OnyxRaven]

Besides, I think girls look sexier with glasses than without. :)

I couldn't agree more.

blah - I hate it when all i have to say is 4 words. per-post voting should be an option :-)

I had Laser Surgery

[iwchick]

One year ago I had the Lasik procedure performed on both eyes (at the same time). I started reviewing my options two years prior to the surgery and settled on the (more expensive) option of Lasik because the procedure was less invasive and there were fewer, and less dramatic, side-effects and risks post-surgery. The total cost for my surgery, with a reputable physician (which I'll address momentarily), was 5k. It is very important to select a physician who not only has received GOOD training but has performed a lot of procedures. Don't hesitate to ask for specifics such as how many procedures they have performed and the rate of complications in their patients. Feel free to contact me off line if you want details on my physician, who is in the Baltimore/DC area. You have to be awake for the procedure, which can be a little disconcerting. I was offered Valium and told the standard dose is 10mg. I asked for and got 30mg so the edge on my anxiety was dulled quite a bit! The entire procedure lasted about 10 minutes with total time under the laser of 7 seconds on one eye and 6 for the other. They will let friends or family watch the procedure on a monitor and you definitely have to have someone with you to drive you home. This is my perspective of the procedure: Lay back in reclining chair with head rested in indentation. The doctor applied numbing drops to my eyes, which stung a very little bit (like dust got in my eyes). She then used a circular device to prop my right eye open (talking to me the whole time, btw) then lowered what appeared to be a circular object down on to my eye (I felt a slight pressure, which was the incision). She then used forceps to peel back the cornea flap. This was the most uncomfortable point for me because I went blind, with the darkness spreading from the outside in. When she started the laser to resurface my cornea I could 'see' the red lines going across my eye. Seven seconds later (and she was counting down) she used the forceps again to place the cornea flap back down, put in a few antibiotic drops and asked me to close my eye. After the second eye was done they gave me some dark glasses and antibiotic drops as well as some plastic shields to tape over my eyes when I slept for the next week. I could see after the procedure, but that Valium had me swaying! I went straight home to bed and slept through to the morning. When I woke up and after I'd peeled off the bug-eyed looking shields and opened my eyes for the first time it was like a miracle. My vision was perfect. Of course, out of habit I started to fumble for my glasses! I did have some side-effects for the first month. At night I would see a halo around street lights and on-coming traffic, which made driving at night a little uncomfortable for me. This resolved the first month. I am, however, more sensitive to bright lights and always wear sunglasses outside on clear days. All in all, I am very glad I had this procedure and would recommend laser corrective surgery to others with the following caveats: do your research and choose the procedure that is right for you, don't choose your procedure based on cost - wait and save more if you must or look into health savings accounts with your employer to use pre-tax $ (some will even pay for it up front and then you pay back over a period of time), don't be afraid to ask for more Valium, and find a reputable physician that makes you feel comfortable.

Not an advice actually, rather my impressions

[ek57]

One of my friends made this surgery some time ago. For the life of mine, I couldn't squeeze out of him his opinion about it. Ditto for two other friends. My guess it is not a miracle cure.

There's a rumor after a while the vision starts to drop quite rapidly for some people after the surgery.

My eyesight is far from perfect, but I am not going to do the surgery. All other reasons aside, one needs to be easy on one's eyes for about 6 months, which means no computers or books. I can't imaging my life without them. Oh, and no physical activities also.

Eugene.

Re:Time.

[asdren]

The TIME article [pathfinder.com] is excellent!! A must read if your considering this surgery. There are certain cases were complications do arise; patients complain of being very sensitive to light and seeing halos. Also in some cases people end up with worse vision than they had. I don't remember the exact statistic but for the most part individuals end up with very close to 20/20 after the surgery. Plan on saving up about $5000 as hardly (if any) insurance companies cover this kind of surgery.

Vance Thompson LASIC

[The Inphidel]

Vance Thompson is the LASIC guy in my area. He is supposed to be one of the best. Anyway, www.vancethompson.com may help you on your quest to eagle eye vision. If you call them I know they will answer any questions.

LASIK: Get the facts

[sleight]

There are two major forms of treatment currently available: LASIK and PRK - LASIK being the most common form. If you dig deeply enough, you will likely find enough discomforting information so as to convince you away from the surgery.

In my case, I work at a company where the insurance policy covers LASIK surgery. Nearly a full third of the staff has had the procedure. All of them have been "successful" but the one thing that goes unnoticed by most people in their research is what exactly defines a successful operation.

According to the multiple sites that I had researched, surgeons consider it a successful operation if you're vision is 20/40 or better. However, according to many testimonials, some doctors don't check pupil size before surgery. If the laser diameter is smaller than your dialated pupil, be prepared for visual artifacts and likely much worsened night vision.

For more information, I highly recommend examining the following URL. What you will read may scare you.

http://www.surgicaleyes.org

The one thing to keep in mind, that I had heard while I was digging for more information, is that 1 in 50 surgeries have an undesirable outcome. The surgeries may have been deemed successful but the side effects have not been satisfactory to the recipients.

Given those odds, I was not going to wager organs that are currently unreplaceable.

Just my $0.02 and recently collected data.

sleight

Been There, Done That, Here's the Deal

[Lurk]

Both me and my wife had laser surgery to correct our eyesight, and we both now have 20/20 vision (with no touch-ups). I would recommend The Eye Laser Miracle [amazon.com], which explains the various vision correction procedures' details and tradeoffs. Also, go in and do a (usually free) consultation and ask lots of probing questions about the procedures, risks, and odds of various outcomes.

We also know four or five others who have done the Lasik procedure, and only one out of all of us needed a touch-up (which is no big deal anyway).

Oh, and one possible side effect that I and one of my aquaintances have noticed is dry eyes now (though it could be that we always had dry eyes and never noticed it because of the nice wind-shields in front of our eyeballs).

--

5 out of 6

[Mr. Quick]

5 out of the six of us in my house have had it done or are getting done next summer (stupid school, always in the way).

it's worth it dude.

ihadh lasik dun

[Anonymous Coward]

it was onfdsly $99.95 ihn mexico, whaut a deal by all mean s go for it, i get moer wimmin now, pusd peolpe say im more attractive.

gopo for it!

My experience

[Jered]

I had LASIK done about about 3 months ago now and have been very happy with the results. I had a very strong prescription (left eye -10.50 +2.50, right eye -10.00 +1.00) and now have 20/15 vision in both eyes. Things definitely look sharper than they ever did with glasses or contacts. It's really great to be able to see my alarm clock, too.

I have experienced one side effect, however. When my pupils are very dilated (at night, for instance) I often get halos and glare around light sources. This is due to the fact that some light still comes in through less corrected portions of the cornea around the edges, because I had such an extreme prescription and have large pupils.

I'm told that this will get somewhat better over the next few months, but may not go away completely. It's something I can adapt to, but it has made driving at night difficult at times. Even with this, I'm happy with the results.

Re:Nothing wrong with glasses!

[Foxpaw]

Well, I've been wearing glasses since I was 3, that makes 20 years now. I wore contacts for 8 years. It gets old, having to take them out and clean them every night, then putting them in the next day. I'm wearing glasses again now, and I don't think they look bad, I have nothing against them, but I would much rather be able to see normally with my own eyes.

One of my sister's friends just had it done, and she says it's great. I don't know how much it costs, but as soon as I finish paying off my car, I'm getting it done.

I did it

[Anonymous Coward]

I am reading all of these replies and it looks like the original poster is having the same problem online that he / she is having in real life: the poster is getting mostly second - hand info. I had the surgery done almost 3 months ago. (August 02, 199). Here is what happened: - I heard an ad on NPR for a local doctor that did lasik. - I made an appointment for a free initial consultation with that doctor. - I showed up in the office on a Monday. They asked me several canned questions (any history of glaucoma in my family, do i see halos, and if I was 21 YOU HAVE TO BE 21, etc) and took computer generated images of the topography of my eyes. - I went in for the surgery 2 days later. - They gave me eye drops that were so strong that they made my lips numb. They also gave me valum (it was kind of an interesting experience, actually) The eye drops were applied every 10 minutes or so for about half an hour. - I then layed back in a chair in the surgery room, (kind of like a dentist's chair) - The doctor covered one eye and taped the other one open. - He directed me to stare directly at the green laser. - He pressed a sharp, round instrument onto my eye that cut into the cornea. It then cut across. He pulled the flap back. I did not feel any pain at all. I stared at the laser and he fired serveral shots. I could literally smell my eye burning. He replaced the flap and used a brush that looked like a model car brush to paint some clear adhesive on my eye. - He then did the other eye in the exact same manner. The surgery itself took less than 10 minutes. I had to wear plastic, see-thru eye patches on the way home and big plastic sunglasses, but I was literally able to read street signs on the way home. (But the sunlight was almost blinding.) I slept the rest of the day and into the morning. I woke up at 4 am and popped in a movie in the VCR. I was able to see it without any glasses at all. I had been wearing corrective lenses since I was in the second grade. I am now 26. My left eye was at -4.25 and my right eye was at -4.75 for contacts. My right eye had astigmatism and they fixed that. I now have 15 in my left eye and 20 in my right eye. To be honest, it took me about a month to fully recover in the sense that looking at the computer screen all day hurt my eyes for that month. And, also, I had to use lots and lots of eye drops since my tear ducts crapped out from the surgery. I am doing fine now. The cost was $4,000 US, but they financed the whole thing since my insurance did not cover it. I am so glad that I had the surgery. I would recommend to most anyone who wants a change. I guess what I am saying is that if you are tired of cleaning contacts, losing contacts, breaking glassess, etc, go for the surgery. I went on my first hiking trip without corrective lenses last weekend and it made the experience so much better. Hope this helps. Good luck.

LASIK vs. PRK

[PhatKat]

In America, there are 160 million people wearing either glasses or contacts. (TIME, 1999) There are two different forms of laser surgery. One is called "PRK", which stands for "photorefractive keratectomy", and the other is called "LASIK", which stands for "laser in situ Keratomileusis". There are some fundamental differences between these two procedures [fda.gov]. Basically, the PRK method is used most often on smaller, less drastic eye corrections. It has virtually no human involvement (there are no cuts made by a doctor because only a machine does any slicing) but it has a longer recovery period. LASIK is used for more drastic changes in vision quality and has a faster recovery period. This procedure depends more on the doctor making cuts, so there is more need to be absolutely sure that the doctor is experienced with this particular treatment. A basic thing to be concerned about is actually, it turns out, the software used for the laser path. Depending who you go to, newer software will be available for better vision. This cost is, of course, passed on to the patient which is something else to consider. If you are interested in seeing a photo essay example of LASIK surgery, that is available here [pathfinder.com]. And for those squeamish folks out there, these are illustrations. No blood, no gore. Check it out.

My Eye Doctor's Opinion on the Surgery

[mzito]

Well, I asked my eye doctor about the surgery about 6 months ago, when I had my last exam. He said I'm an excellent candidate, etc. etc. etc. but then talked about his misgivings about the procedure:

1) He doesn't recommend it until you're 25- he says that before then your eyes are still growing and changing.

2) There have been no long term studies on the after-effects of the surgery. He described how before the surgery, the cornea is a grid of perfect hexagons, and after the surgery, the grid is gone, replaced by fused cells, small lesions, etc. He said that theoretically that should have no effect on the long-term health of the eye, but that lesions and fused cells don't make him comfortable.

He was overall definitely enthusiastic, but I think those two misgivings are definitely something to mention to your eye doctor when discussing the procedure.

Matt Zito

You might want to wait a bit...

[Superfreak]

The odds are improving all the time with laser eye treatments, and there are some new things on the horizon to keep an eye out for.

I can't remember what program it was on, but I *think* it was one of the network nightly newscasts that did a feature on an engineering firm in Silicon Vally that is about to start trials on a new system. It appears to be some insanely precise machinery to control the laser more accurately. Their goal (and it looks good so far) is *not* 20/20 vision - they aim for 20/10...and in fact plan on marketing it to people with normal eyesight who would like legendary eyesight...

20/20 vision is *not* perfect vision - it's just the standard on the old eye chart from 1840's or 1850's (I think). BTW - apparently they have done some operations during research, and average about 20/12 vision...

To summarize, something like this sounds like a real advance - even if the surgery doesn't go quite right, you would still probably wind up with 20/20 or so - but, as with anything medical, there's always that chance...

Wish I had a URL, but can't find one right now

Here is some useful info

[Agent Orange]

Try checking out:

http://www.theeyeinstitute.com.au/laser/laser.ht m

This is the site of an australian place which has been doing this kind of surgery for at least 8 or 9 years. I have found the doctors here to be very good, and I think they are some of the best here in OZ (at least their qualifications seem to indicate so).

They also have a half decent history of the operations etc, although IMHO they could go into a bit more detail.

AO

Re:Time.

[Amoeba Protozoa]

I was listening to a program on National Public Radio [npr.org] about LASIC laser vision correction. The general consensus from the various doctors that were interviewed seamed to say, "it is a good, but expensive procedure with a low rate of failure: but this is your vision we are talking about so perhaps it is best to wait a few years to see if the technology improves and to see long term results from patients that have already undergone the LASIC procedure."

I remember how they told of one person with horrible vision, who couldn't drive a car even with glasses on. The procedure brought him to 20/60-- good enough to drive with glasses.

They also told of an execute who's wife bought him the surgery for his birthday. Something very goofy happened and now he has double vision in both eyes. "My life is ruined, I have lost my independance," he said.

I think it is proof enough in that last case that would make me wait a little while longer or find an experienced doctor to perform the surgery. I recall the program recommending you call the National Board of Optomitry (sorry, no URL) to get recommendations.

Oh, in reply to the parent of this thread:

"The procedure also isn't guaranteed to have you seeing 20/20... although between 20/20 and 20/40 is common. Some people (although uncommon) even get their vision corrected to better than normal.. as good as 20/10.

The doctors often under-correct to make it easier on your eyes when you age. If they were to correct your vision too far, you might need some heavy reading glasses when you get older!

-AP

Re:Nothing wrong with glasses!

[AndyL]

"Really! Why risk (ALL surgery has risks) messing up your eyes when glasses or even contacts, if you're concerned about appearance, can clear things up just fine?"

Well personaly I wear glasses and I wish I had the surgery. There are many reasons why glasses are aggrivating.
1. They get in the way. You can't look into a teliscope, camera or microscope whithout dificulty.
2. They have an exposed surface. They collect dust and have to be clean regularly or you lose resolution. Also they're vulnerable to scratches. And don't try to tell me about anti-scratch coating. My current right-lens needs to be replaced because the anti-scratch stuff is flakeing off. It makes a line much more anoying then a scratch.
3. It's dificult to wear other glasses. Safty Glasses are a big one. Sometime just polycarb lenses are enough, but more often then not you want the side pieces only safty glasses have. They're supposed to fit over but it's never comfortable. And my H3d glasses are very unconfortable over my other glasses. I won't even mention sunglasses and HMD's because I don't own either.
4. They break, fall off, get steped on, lost. I'm blind enough that if I drop my glasses on the floor I need someone else to hand them to me or I'll spend ten min on the floor feeling around.
5. My glasses distort things near the edge. I don't know if they all do.

As for contacts, they just scare me. I spend most of my life trying to stop things from landing on the surface of my eye. (I apply the similer logic to needles.)

"Besides, I think girls look sexier with glasses than without. :) "

Ok, I'll give you that one.

My Experience

[DaEvOsH]

I want to share my experience with you, as I do with everyone who is considering this surgery. I am quite enthusiastic of doing so, since my experience was so positive. I did mine in the Eye (Not eye, but Oftalmologico, to lazy to go for the dictionary) Clinic in Cali, Colombia. The doctors here are highly trained prophesionals, and the equipment is the latest. They are very experience, one of the first institutions to do this surgery in south america and the first in my country.

Before the operation they do all kind of tests to ensure success in the surgery. I specially remember a test where they did a 3D scan of your eye, and based on the 3D relief they got they planned the laser strength and distribution to shape your eyeball to the correct geometric proportions it should have. All done by computers, and being a geek I was quite amazed by it. Not your 'read the letters' kind of eye exam.

The surgery is very safe, and has a lot of advantages over the old type of surgery. If anything goes wrong, it can be repeated within 1 week to correct the error. In the old surgery you had to wait for 6 monthes for the eye to heal itself. It is ambulatory (??), you walk out of the operating room with your eyes open. The old operation depended on the skill of the surgeon, since he used a blade directly on your eye, and made cuts to correct the geometry of your eyes. The risks where high, and I know people who blew their eyesight for ever with this old surgery. In this one, the only risk factor is that YOU move your eyes when the laser is active, so it all goes down to you. Let me tell you about the surgery.

It is a simple process, you feel no pain at all and most of what happens is psychological, since you are awake and seeing everything that is happening through the eye they are operating on. But you do not feel a thing, trust me on that. First, they clean your eye throughly and put pain killers and medicine on it. Then, they fix a suction pump in the form of a ring around your eyeball, which make your eyeball flat so they can use a high frequency vibrating blade to peel up a very thin slice of your cornea. The take this round section off, you actually see it as they take it away, about the size of a contact lense. Then, they put you underneath the machine, under the laser, and tell you to hold still and stare at a led. This is the critical part, as they beggin firing the laser, you need to hold still. They did 40 firings on one of my eyes, 35 on the other one. You can even fill a smell of burning flesh in the air. After the firings, they clean the ashes away, and put the piece of cornea back on top of where they cutted it. The cornea is the part of the body that heals faster, and within five minutes you can blink safely. You go out of the hospital within 15 minutes, walking, with your eye open, only protected by a little plastic shell so, that night, you will not risk peeling away the cornea which is still not 100% stuck in place. They did one eye on tuesdaym the other on thursday. They normally do it this way. Slowly I began to get my vision back, within a day I could read a little and watch TV, and within a week resume normal computer usage. The only thing I felt for about 2 or 3 weeks was a very high sensibility to bright light, had to wear sunglasses and car headlight hurted me. This is how the operation works, sorry for my language, my english is not the best and obviously i know s**t about medical terms. Dont let my crude description of the process scare you, it is quite amazing to live through it, and you do not feel a thing, as I said, you are very tense but it is all psychological.

I would recomend to anyone doing the operation in a country like Colombia. Medicine here is great, and it is very cheap. The doctor is very well learned and travels 3-4 times a year to the states and world wide to conferences and stuff, speaks excelent english, and is very well knows. When I did the surgery, 3 years ago, they had performed more or less 200 surgerys, with only 5 out of aceptance range (+- 0.5 I think) which were corrected, and 1 that had problems. 3 years into the operation my eyesight is still perfect. They even overcorrected me for the best. My eyesight problem was still increasing, so they overdid it so, 3 years after, my eyesight has stabilized a little over 20/20. If you want further info, email me and I would give you the email of the doctor. He can inform you of costs involved. I do not know if they are doing this surgery yet in the states, they weren't on the time I underwent it. If you do the surgery overseas and the doctors are responsible, you will have to travel twice, once to get the tests done, the other to take the surgery itselt. I think so. Do not know the reasons, I had to take two series of tests, very throught (complete), 2 monthes before and a week before. Also, I could not use contact lenses for 3 monthes before and stay away from pools for a couple of weeks before. Of course, after the operation, you have to stay away from pools for a while, take some medicine in drops, and stay away from doing effort with your eyes for a week or so.

Overall, I hope this help. Email me with any question you got, I would be happy to help. My recommendation is go for it, it is great, will make you very happy, absolutely risk free and very well worth the cost and (small) inconvenience.

Best wishes,

Venturello



pd. Sorry for my english. Dont flame me or correct me as usual for it! :)

Re:BE CAREFUL

[DaEvOsH]

The doctor doing the surgery fucked it up beyond belief and butchered her corneas.


My question is, was this laser surgery? As far as I know, the chances of the doctor fucking up on this surgery are slim...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

[crayz]

Oh, so that thing I got you for your birthday ruined your eyesight for the rest of your life?

Oh...

Well....

Well, shit happens I guess. Next year I'll get you a tie.

You can bet that will be a happy marriage.

UCSD Shiley Eye Center has a lot of Information

[Spoke]

There's a lot of good information over at the UCSD Shiley Eye Center [ucsd.edu]. One of my good friend's wife is going to get Intacs next Wednesday at Shiley, we'll see how it goes. And if it works well, I may be next in line!

Re:Not without risk

[AndyL]

Does this seem likely? Wouldn't the numbers be diferent for each eye? So would he still have a good eye left?

UCLA Medical Center's site

[dimator]

I understand UCLA has done a lot of good work with laser eye surgery. More info can be consumed at www.universitylaser.com [universitylaser.com]

On a side note, there was an article in the paper a while ago that discussed an alternative to laser eye surgery. It consisted of making a small slit under the pupil of the eye, and sliding in a thin piece of fingernail shaped plastic. It squeezes the lens of the eye in a particular (corrective) shape, and although uncomfortable at first (the eye feels "tight"), it is a good alternative to laser surgery because it is completely reversible (they just take out the little plasic piece). I tried to find more info on this on the web but couldn't. :(



-----------------
Your attention please everyone, if I could just say a few words... I would be a better public speaker.

Re:laser vision

[nachoboy]

I have a coworker that had this done and she said it took less than 10 minutes. It cost her $1300 an eye (because she paid up front with a credit card, normal fare is $1400-1500 an eye at this doctor) and she has been very happy with it. It has been 7 months and she has not had to go back for the touchup, although the doctor says it's about a 50/50 chance as to whether you will need it or not.

Re:It is on his FAQ already

[Speed Racer]

for the cut and paste impaired:
http://www.weirdal.com/aa.htm [weirdal.com]

Re:No Hurry

[jfrisby]

<<Never having to clean my glasses or deal with a cat hair on my contact ever again is a really appealing prospect. Just not sp appealing that I'd risk making my situation worse.>>

From what I understand, the risk is actually quite minor... Thankfully though I don't need it... The thought of someone peeling back part of my eye is just sickening!

My mom is considering it though... Time or Newsweek or some such had an article about it that covered the procedure and the risks quite well..

Apparently quite a few people need follow up surgery to correct what are essentially imprecisions of the first procedure, but very few have severe outcomes...


Jon Frisby, Senior Internet Software Engineer,
Personal Site (MrJoy.com) [mrjoy.com]

Re:laser vision

[Sentry21]

I was in the mall today, and I happened to walk past a laser eye care place while I was there (it was properly located next to a computer hardware store you see), so the following is out of the brochure (I'm not copying the propaganda).

First, the clinic and I are Canadian, so if the first poster is right about the Canada thing, then hey, rock on. Cost at this particular clinic, and likely at others nearby (I live an hour from Vancouver) is CDN$995/eye (about $680 USD), and there's no tax on that.

Time taken, likely just for the actual slicing and dicing is apparantly 'a few minutes'. The procedure, two eyes at once, usually takes about an hour they say, so all the prep work, and making sure you can still see. You return to normal vision in a few days, so do this on a friday long weekend or Easter or something.

On the safety bit, here's a quote from the brochure:

The Health Protection Branch of Health and Welfare Canada and the FDA have recognized laser vision correction for nearsightedness and astigmatism and has found the treatment safe and effective for patients within certain ranges.

Don't take my word for it. Go out, talk to yor optometrist. Or come up to Canada and talk to one of ours.

~Sentry21~

Re:Nothing wrong with glasses!

[MfA]

My experiences

1. I take of my glasses and adapt the focus if it bothers me too much

2. Im lazy and not very demanding, I usually clean my "glasses" (plastic really) when people start telling me they cant see my eyes :) Never have had much trouble with scratches, but Im carefull with the glasses... never had coating come off neither.

3. Safety glasses... a pain but if its really important to you you can get something made. H3D/HMD I dont know about, and I can get sunglasses made cheaply.

4. Thats probably because you have really heavy glasses, my glasses only fall off if something catches them and makes them. (like my clumsy hands)

5. Nah just the really strong ones

Marco

Re:Nothing wrong with glasses!

[Ferrule]

Obviously no-one here has tried mountainbiking with glasses..... Anyone here mountain bike?

How about Kayaking. Glasses are less than optimal.

And the list goes on and on.

Laser Surgery is Awesome

[dhiraz]

I had the LASIC surgery done in April. All I
can say is that it is incredible!!! It cost
about $1500 per eye. THe entire procedure
takes about 10 minutes. You're in and out
in about 30 minutes.

I went from really bad eyes, -5.5 and -6 to
20/20 vision. I saw starburst around lights
for a while, only at night. But this has
been fading gradually since the operation. I
notice it every now and then when my eyes
are dry, but that's it (it's been six months).

If you want to find out about it, go make an
appointment for a consultation with a doctor.
It's free, and they tell you all about the
procedure. Set up several of these, and read
the information they give you.

The procedure itself is very mechanical, and
is mostly done by the machine. There aren't
many ways that it can go wrong. No one has
ever gone blind having this done!!! The biggest
risk is over or under correction. The trickiest
part of the whole ordeal is getting your
prescription right so that they correct properly.

A friend of mine was overcorrected. His vision
was not 20/20 in one eye, and he had to go back
to have this fixed, now he is fine.

I have't heard any real horror stories from anyone.

I remember waking up the day after and being
able to read the clock. I was amazed. Now,
I can't even remember what it was like to deal
with glasses and contacts.

My family had a lens' put in their eyes

[noleboy00]

My mother, father, and grandparents have all had the surgury. Luckily i have good vision, so i don't need it. The procedure goes like this. First you go in for a consultation. Then you set an appointment to get one eye done. You come to your appointment and are put to sleep under anesthesia for 1 hour or so. The doctor performs the surgury(details at http://www.shugar.com ). You are brought back from dream land and walk out the door that afternoon. You will have to take drops for a couple day, but after that you are all done. A few days later you will be totally healed and your vision will 99% of the time be as you desired. The next week you can/will go back to have your second eye done. It is my understanding that a lens is put "into" your eye. Kinda like a contact, but inside your eye. My mother does the anesthesia at http://www.shugar.com , and she hasn't seen a failure in the two years she worked there. I'm not sure about the specifics of the insurance coverage, but i do know that some insurance policies have covered the surgury. eot

Absolutely, Depending...

[KeyRate]

I had LASIK surgery 18 months ago. I had both eyes done at the same time. This was a new version of LASIK that supports correction of astigmatism. I had astigmatism nearly as bad in both eyes as my near sightedness, which wasn't horrible -5.5, but combined with the astigmatism, it made me nearly blind w/o glasses.

The proceedure itself took less than 20 minutes. The majority of the work goes into the planning, checking, and rechecking of the proposed modifications done to the surface of your eye.

It's very cool, I have a video of the proceedure.

Basically, they use a device that planes the top of your cornea into a "flap", which gets flipped out of the way. They then laze away the various parts of your eye to bring the topography back into norm. The flap gets replaced. No sutures, the flap stays via suction.

That is why it's quite important that you follow the directions explicitly after surgery. The surgery itself is less than half the solution, the healing process is critical to ensuring your vision becomes 20/20. DO wear the protective sheilding. DO use the rewetting drops. DO NOT rub your eyes. DO follow up with all your follow-up visits.

There are many possible complications to the proceedure. Immediately after surgery your eyes are extremely sensitive to light. It also feels like sand is in your eyes for a few hours after surgery. I also personally experienced coronas at night around lights. It made driving the first few days nearly impossible. It lessened and at the end of two weeks was gone. Other complications can arise, especially infection.

Your vision continues to change, noticably for the first 6 months. You can see better immediatly, if the surgery is a success. The Dr.s normally aim on the 20/40 side of 20/20. They generally don't touch up if your 20/40 or better, but will touch up after a month if they need to. (I didn't need to)

My vision is essentially somewhere between 20/20 and 20/15. I have a very slight astigmatism in my left eye still, but it's not enough that it distorts my vision noticably (unless I'm taking an eye exam and get down to 20/20-20/15 tests).

I paid $2100/eye. Correction w/o astigmatism was $1900/eye.

My personal opinion: It's the best $4200 I've spent. Ever. I am now liberated. I can ski. Swim. Dive. Surf. Play sports. Wake up & see. Be intimate. Anything. I _enjoy_ buying Sunglasses again! I didn't do it for cosmetic reasons, I did it so I could live my life the way I wanted to. And that's the only reason to do it.

If glasses aren't preventing you from doing anything you want to do, then LASIK eye surgery is a frivilous, unnecessary risk. Otherwise, it's a personal decision that you'll have to evaluate yourself.

There are _no_ regrets in my decision.

--

Re:LASIK vision correction, for and against

[Speed Racer]

• I've been thinking of having LASIK surgery on my (pitifully myopic monitor-induced) eyes

How did a monitor (computer monitor, I presume) induce myopia? Myopia, afaik, is due to eye being too long, thus bringing the focal point anterior to the retina. It is generally hereditary and stops progressing when your body stops growing (around 25 years old as noted in a previous post).

Re:corneal ring implants

[j a w a d]

IIRC, It's been approved and is currently available. It can be undone, as opposed to LASIK. To quote one poster who said in a different thread, "They can "touchup" and do a little bit more, but never take back what has already been done.. " Not the same with corneal ring implants.

Think about when you need to see...

[jnik]

Remember the side effects: possible haloes or star-shapes at night. Do you need to drive at night? (What about if the server goes down at 1am?) Do you need high-detail work? Microscopy might be affected. Astronomical telescopy would definitely be affected. Remember: haloes from contacts, take out the contacts. Haloes from corrective surgery--take out your corneas?!

Re:BE CAREFUL!

[MfA]

They dont trust it as much as true blue 20/20, and they have plenty of choice. They can put any itty-bitty thing in their selection procedure, they still get enough people. I agree I wouldnt let someone dig around my eye just yet, but this argument doesnt cut it :)

Re:Keep your priorities straight

[Speed Racer]

• A reputable doctor won't aim for 20/20 in someone pushing forty because they're going to naturally become a bit farsighted in the next few years, so I should hit 20/20 in a few years.

You are describing presbyopia [gate.net].

Re:Be careful

[Speed Racer]

I'm sorry to be so doubtful but this sounds like an Urban Myth(TM).
I suppose your AC status doesn't lend credibility. Any corroborating evidence?

A reason to wait: Nidek Diagnostic Tool

[jwales]

I saw a television new segment the other day about VisX, the company that makes the laser equipment. They are just now coming out with a new diagnostic device that more accurately measures your eye. They are already able to hit 20/20 most of the time, but with the new technology that is coming out, you'll be able to have "better than perfect" vision -- 20/10 in many cases. This is perhaps the first time in history that there has been surgery available to improve human functionality beyond what is "natural". If you don't think that's cool, you have no business calling yourself a geek, I say. Should be out by the end of next year....

I had LASIK..here's how I feel.

[Juggle]

I think the big problem is people not shopping around for their doctors well. Before I had LASIK my eyes were pretty bad, I could make out the E on the chart and could guess some of the letters on the line below it but that was about all. I don't have my last prescreption handy and don't remember exactly how bad I was.

I've been waiting quite a while for many of the clinical trials to finish. My normal eye care doctor also had been watching the trials and was trained in RK but refused to use it. Recently he told me I should look into LASIK and I did. With a vengence.

I spent over 4 hours talking with the doctor who I eventually had do my surgury. I spoke with nearly a dozen of the over 1,000 patients he had already treated. Oh, and I went to the most respectable clinic in my area to find him. (Cleveland Clinic for reference) I asked him flat out about many of the possible outcomes and complications and he did NOT try to sugar coat anything. He was very upfront and honest. After that I researched the research and statistics that were available regarding LASIK. Specifically I got the statistics on the procedures he had performed and the statistics of the people who had trained him. I was willing to play the odds based on what I saw.

Oh I should also mention that he warned me beforehand that my pupils were borderline on being large enough to cause problems with Night Vision.

If given the chance again I would definatly have the surgure again. I can now read the 20/20 line as if it was a book in front of my face, and the 20/15 isn't much harder. I can do better but that depends on the lighting. In bright light I feel like an Eagle. In dim light I'm still 20/20 but can notice some haze around light sources. (Still not as bad as the bluring when my glasses used to get dirty [10 minutes after washing them]).

However, I do not like driving at night any more than necessary expect in brightly lit areas. As long as I concentrate I don't notice the halos around headlights. But if I let my concentration down and my eyes start to relax it can become very distracting. (I am easily distracted however!).

Overall If you are thinking about surgury give LASIK a good strong look but be sure to do your OWN research and not take anyone else's at face value. I've seen plenty of explanations of the same statistics that are damn convincing in both directions. Get the stats yourself and make your own decesions.

Get disposable contact lenses instead.

[jetson123]

I am near sighted enough that I can't really function without some kind of vision correction. Yet I ski, dive, hike, run, and participate in other sports. I'm hard pressed to think of any sport where wearing glasses is a problem. In fact, most sports really require wearing goggles anyway, and having prescription goggles makes sure you don't forget to put them on. And even for nerdier activities, like labwork, while no substitute for safety goggles, my glasses have protected my eyes more than once.

If you don't like the cosmetics of glasses (but if you don't, why are you reading "News for Nerds"?), get disposable one-day contact lenses. They are very comfortable, trivial to deal with, and seem to be quite safe.

I had it done almost a year ago

[jht]

I had the newer LASIK version of the surgery, where they cut a flap into the epithelial layer of your eye (only a few microns thick), lift it out of the way, and then lase the actual corneal tissue. This is generally more effective than the older PRK surgery, with a significantly faster recovery time, though more expensive. At the center I went to (New England Eye Center at Tufts/NEMC), they charged $1500 per eye for PRK, $2000 per for LASIK.

The actual procedure has been described in many other places in this thread, but here's my $.02:

From the moment they give you the Valium until you are done, it's about a half hour. The majority of the time is just waiting for the Valium to kick in. The actual procedure takes about 10 minutes, of which the majority is prep time. The keratome (the device that makes the incision) is only about a minute, and the laser generally fires for about 10 seconds. At the very end, you start to get a whiff of the tissue burned, which is a little weird. Recovery is nearly instantaneous, I was able to see out of each eye within about a half-hour (though I kept the plastic shield on each eye anyways). NEEC will generally try to do your two eyes about 2 weeks apart, starting with your non-dominant eye first in case they find that a further adjustment is needed. Follow-up appointments are frequent: I went in the day after each surgery, a week after, and then I went after a month, two months, and six months. I have one more follow-up appointment in early February (the surgeries were this past January).

Before, I had a -3.25 prescription (I'm not quite sure what it translates to), and now I have 20/15 vision in both eyes. No noticable side effects like haloing or anything like that - I don't seem to be any more sensitive to glare than I was before. If anything, I'm a hair farsighted now - it takes me a moment to shift focus from far to near (I can shift the other way as fast as ever). It's not a problem so much as something different I had to adjust to.

It wound up costing me about $3000, factoring in the flex savings plan I used and the $1000 I had to come up with out-of pocket. My company lets me advance my total flex contribution at any point during the year, and then takes it out of my paycheck tax-free throughout the year. So I was able to front-load it and get all the money in January, which was nice. I saved about $1000 in taxes that way and lowered the effective price from $4000 to $3000. If your employer has a flex plan, use it by all means. A handful of insurers may pay for it directly, in which case I wish I had worked for one of them when I did the surgery, but most insurers will not pay.

Beats the hell out of glasses, I can certainly say - though I do sometimes have the old "ghost reflex" of pushing the non-existent glasses up on my nose...

The first thing I did after the surgeries were complete was go out and buy a pair of the funkiest Oakley wraparounds I could find. Because I could!

- -Josh Turiel

LASIK surgery

[substrate]

I'm going to LASIK surgery done eventually, probably in Windsor Ontario (my hometown) since one of the leading surgeons happens to operate from there (Dr. Tafour at the Windsor Laser Eye Institute). He was doing LASIK surgery long before the US approved it, the laws on experimental techniques are more conducive to research and development in Canada. Click here [lasik-centers.com] if you're interested. There are actually real statistics on this page broken down by type of problem and frequency.

If you're in or near a metropolitan area you will be approached by laser centers offering really good deals on the procedure. The reason this is usually done is that this is a new center, they're trying to establish a large number of operations early on to instill confidence in future customers. I'm not saying this to discourage anybody from accepting the offer. Every doctor practicing LASIK had to start somewhere. I just believe in disclosure.

Decide if you really want the procedure. It's not going to make you an instant sex symbol. My personal reasons are that I can't wear contacts, I don't tear enough. I've got a very wide field of vision, regardless of the size of the glasses frame I've got an annoying field of uncorrected vision around me, this is distracting to me and potentially dangerous.

Re:I have heard that it is not always perfect

[dolphineus]

The procedure you are thinking of is an intra-ocular contect lens. They cut a little opening in the eye and insert the lens. Below is two quotes from mining co about two new surgeries for vision correction. Both are relatively new.

The first is a flexible, inert, circular ring that is implanted in the periphery of the cornea. It changes the shape of the cornea without any surrounding inflammation or scarring. It's advantage is the ring can be removed at any time, leaving the cornea back in its original state. It is in preliminary testing with results encouraging so far.

The second procedure is an implantable contact lens. Instead of wearing a contact lens on the outside of the eye, with all the care and risks involved with that, a similar lens is placed inside the eye. It unlike other procedures, would be theoretically effective for any type of refractive error (myopia, hyperopia, or astigmatism). It would give instant results, again with the ability to remove the lens should it become necessary. It is also in preliminary testing with very good results to date. This will be scrutinized more thoroughly because it will be the only refractive surgery to involve entering inside the eye, risking the possibility of infection.

Both paragraphs above copied from http://ophthalmology.about.com/health/medicine/oph thalmology/library/weekly/aa072197.htm without permission.

I hope that clarifies

I read about this...

[Millennium]

A while back, Consumer Reports did an article on it.

It seems to work pretty well, at least in the short term, though apparently many LASIC users feel a bit more postoperative pain than those who undergo "traditional" RK (though I'm not letting anyone near my eyes with a scalpel). However, often the procedure works too well, and people get increasingly farsighted as the years pass (more so than the natural tendency toward farsightedness as one ages).

Also, I hope you weren't considering climbing Everest after this procedure; one guy tried and he was blinded after reaching a certain altitude, though his sight returned after he'd hit the top and went back down. Airplanes shouldn't have that problem, seeing as they're pressurized.

It's a tradeoff. My own vision is pretty bad, but I think I'm going to wait this one out until the percentages are better.

Larry Wall's corena transplant

[Get Behind the Mule]

This is not quite the same procedure, but you might be interested in the diary [wall.org] kept by Larry Wall Author of Perl Busy Man [perl.com] last year about his cornea transplant.

In some of the later entries, Larry writes that he might consider LASIK in the future, but evidently that hasn't happened so far.

Re:night vision probs

[hey!]

There's been a lot of talk about this on sci.astro.amateur.

The problem is that the surgery works well in the center of the lens, but creates diffraction problems (due to cuts) and abberation problems further from the center where the correction is poor.

During the daytime, when the pupil is constricted, the results may be quite good, but at night time when the pupil may dilate to as much as 7mm or even more in a few cases, your vision could be wrecked. For this reason, it is important to know your maximum pupil dilation if you are considering this surgery. As you get older, your maximum pupil gets smaller, so that typically (but not always) if you are over 40 you cannot dilate to more than 5mm, wheras if you are twenty you probably can dilate to 7mm. Naturally, this varies greatly from person to person, but as you get older your chance of serious night vision degredation is reduced.

The consensus in the astro group is that if you care about quality of vision, it is better to go with a premium eyeglass (we're talking lenses, not fancy frames here) from a manufacturer like Zeiss.

If my maximum pupillary dilation was 5mm or less, I might consider this if only fair night vision (i.e. good enough to drive with) were good enough for me. In that case, I'd consult with my eye doctor and if possible talk to people he had done this procedure to.

Re:Nothing wrong with glasses!

[Jake96]

Agreed -- glasses are a pain in sports. I've got soft contacts as well and I can do most sports with no problem, but there are a couple of exceptions.

Swimming: It feels like my contacts are going to float out of my eyes if I open them under water, esp. if I'm moving or there's a current.

Boxing / Sparring: I've been hit in the face a few times while boxing. I was wearing headgear and my opponent was wearing big gloves. Getting hit in the vicinity of the eye tended to knock the contacts out of my eyes, which resulted in me forfeiting the match. It's very difficult to hit your opponent if you can't see him! This hasn't happened while sparring (with no gloves or headgear), so I wonder if the headgear scrunching up my face or the soft padding in the boxing glove that could conform to my face's contours might have had a large effect. The possibility still makes me nervous when I spar, though.

So as far as I know, you need good natural or surgically corrected vision to swim underwater comfortably or box.

Note that the problem with boxing / sparring could potentially be a safety issue, not just a sports issue. If I get attacked (at a bar, for example), I don't want to lose my ability to see my attacker just because he lands a quick blow to the face. That could be the first step to getting killed.

Hmm, on second thought, ignore me, I'm just paranoid.

I'm getting corrective surgery as soon as I have the money, my prescription stabilizes and I've thoroughly researched the different types available.

Re:Laser may not be the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're a pilot, or want to learn to fly a plane, don't get this surgery. It is explicitly not approved for pilots. The halos and small distortions that can be caused by this surgery can have a serious negative effect on your ability to visually judge distances and altitudes when near the ground (like when you're landing, for example). These problems are worse at night. Judgement of height above ground when landing is entirely visual, and critical to a safe landing. At night, this judgment is almost entirely from the spacing and relative motion of the runway lights -- if you're not seeing these clearly and undistorded, you and your passengers going to have an unpleasant experience.

Re:I've seen the procedure live...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have also done the procedure a little more recently. About two months ago. The price hasn't changed much, I paid $3700 for both eyes. As far as payments, you have several options depending on where you go. Cash up front will work anywhere you go. My doctor gave me the option to pay half upfront, a quarter the next month and the remainder the next month. He also had a bank that you could get a loan from and make payments. As far as the actual procedure goes, noone is being very clear. So, here goes. First they take a whole bunch of measurements of your eye with cameras and computers. Then they give you 10mg of valium just to calm your nerves a bit. Then they put anaesthetic eyedrops in the eye(s) getting done. They make you wait about 10 minutes for the drops to take efeect. They check that buy literally poking you in the eye and seeing if you can feel it. If you can't, you're all ready to go. When they took me into the operating room, my doctor offered me a teddy bear to hold onto for support. This procedure may vary by doctor. They put you into position where you can look into the red light. This light is your focal point to help you not move your head. They use a clamp to hold your eyelids open (one eye at a time ofcourse). In order to cut open the flap of cornea, this suction thing (actual medical term) comes down onto your eye and sucks up the cornea just enough to give a nice clean cut and lessen the risk of cutting too deep into the eye. When the cornea is being sucked everything goes black. This was the most painful part for me. This part lasts all of 15 seconds. When that flap is removed everything is very, very blurry, but you can still see the red dot. The laser then does it's work to reshape your eye. Oddly enough smell was not as bad as I thought it would be. If you start to feel any pain or discomfort during any part of this entire procedure they immediately put more drops in your eye. I had my procedure done with the most recent laser out there which is more precise and moves with the movement of your eye to give a precise and accurate cut the first time around. My eyesight was so bad (20/800) that without the new laser I would have had to do the procedure twice to get my vision to 20/20. The new laser did that in one session. Anyway, after the laser does it's job, they lay down the flap, take the clamps off your eyelids and off you go. They put these plastic eye cups over your eyes so you don't rub or accidentally hit it. You must wear these at night for about a week. They also give you the big, huge sunglasses, because your eyes are very sensitive to light. So, that is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

Re:Laser may not be the way to go

[Big Electric Cat]

Actually, most of those problems are associated with old-style RK (which makes much larger incisions in the eye) rather than current laser surgeries, which do experience these problems but at a frequency of maybe 1% when performed by experienced doctors. It is legal to fly a private plane after surgery, and it was recently allowed by revised Navy pilot standards too- night landings on aircraft carriers and all. I'd expect the FAA and the Air Force to follow suit relatively soon as the procedures continue to improve. Myself, I'm content to wait a few years until it's perfected.