Windows CE going Open Source?
Posted by
Hemos
on Tue Oct 19, 1999 12:16 PM
from the interesting-idea dept.
from the interesting-idea dept.
Pseudo Nim wrote to us with an interesting editorial from IT Director. Citing internal sources inside of Microsoft, the column claims that due to fear of competing with Linux in the embedded space, the WinCE folks are considering open sourcing Windows CE. I don't know how much stock I place in the rumours, but it's a very interesting proposition.
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
Windows CE going Open Source?
|
Log In/Create an Account
| Top
| 145 comments
(Spill at 50!) | Index Only
| Search Discussion
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1)
|
2
(1)
|
2
Re:I think you're confused about real-time OS (Score:4)
For some reason, people see "embedded RTOS" and assume it's great for all embedded systems.
Now I've never done embedded systems such as PDAs, set tops, etc but I have done machines and instrumentation. That's where it's *really* useful.
ABS system in a car: real-time, unless you're an idiot.
Robotic factory machines (which I've done): real-time. You don't want that gripper to grip a little too early/late or you'll risk damage. You have to make sure that the analysis you're doing from sensor input (load cell, etc) doesn't screw up your timing. Priorities are your friend.
PDA/set-top box: Traditional OS. Real-time will give you no advantage.
Well, unless someone can give me a good reason. Remember that I've never done a set-top or PDA before. I may be missing something.
WinCE is a bugtrap. (Score:3)
We have encountered all kinds of issues over the past two years:
- UDP sockets set to non-blocking block anyway on recv()
- connects to *non-existent* local TCP ports succeeding!
- WaitForMultipleObjects hangs forever even with specified timeout.
- Waiting for process to terminate by waiting on its handle doesn't work
These are just specific issues I recall off the top of my head.
Believe me, we have tons of #ifdef _WIN32_WCE occurences.
The overall user experience is that hangs are frequent.
This could decide the world's future (Score:3)
Embedded systems are more then just a market segment. If information technology continues to advance itself and permeate our lives as it has so far, embedded systems will become the only market.
Consider the popular sci-fi future, where computers and IT are ubiquitous. Comptuers are everywhere. In your phone. In your car. In your fridge, your desk, your chair, your wallet, maybe even your body. Can it get any more embedded then that? Is IT likely to stop before it reaches this point, or one like it?
I don't think so. I think the logical progression is for IT to become omnipresent, like the written word is today. Computers will be everywhere -- embedded in our lives.
The software that drives those embedded systems could well determine the future of our civilization as we know it.
It has been demonstrated many times that Open Source Software does well on projects of this scale and impact, and that the benifits in terms of freedom, security, and trust are often overwhelming. While corporate might is not something to be ignored, OSS has both practical and political advantages that only a fool would ignore. It may be that the almighty buck cannot fight OSS well enough to win.
If that is the case, then it follows that if WinCE is closed source, it will fail. If it is open, it stands a chance (a chance -- no more, no less) of being a core part of the future of the information age.
If all systems are embedded, and MS is not a part of that, then MS will quickly die, very like so many big mainframe vendors did when micros took over.
This decision could be more then simple politics. It could be bigger then the industry. It could well impact the universal communication medium of the forseeable future.
Is this an extreme case, a maximzation of possible influence? Yes, it is. I am taking this to extremes to demonstrate a point. This may be no more then a small pop in a sea of noise. However, it has the potential to be a shot heard 'round the world.
Something to think about.
It is interesting, living in these times.
You are all wrong, MS is up against Epoc! (Score:3)
All the mobile phones from all the major manufacturers will run Epoc as their operating system in the future.
MS know that palmtops and phones will merge into personal communication devices and it's Epoc that's driving this... Wince just doesn't stack up against Epoc and MS know it.
http://www.symbian.com/
Microsoft has lost, and knows it. (Score:3)
You can now get a very nice entry level Palm for around $156, and a very nice high end unit for anywhere from $220 (palm IIIx) to $249 (visor deluxe).
These amazing little things just dissapear into your life as an indespensible tool. The darn things are so usefull, reliable, and unobtrusive you forget they are even computers. The three pilots I have owned (I keep upgrading and selling to friends) have been MORE reliable then the paper franklin planner they replaced (as the pilot almost always survives a drop, and the planner would often pop it's ring clips and spread my pages all over the street).
Wince devices, on the other hand, retail for 2 to 3 times the price of a palm unit, have a (well deserved) reputation for being poorly designed and nearly useless in the real world, and have little to no third party software support (relative to the Palm devices, anyway).
Microsoft has blown it too many times... they cannot seem to comprehend that a PDA is not and should not be some sort of ultra small laptop. They only stayed in the game as long as they have because of the massive amounts of $$capitol$$ being hemmoraged by Microsoft, and because 3com was trying to offset terrible losses in other divisions by gouging on the price of the very successfull Pilot.
That was then, and Palm was winning hands down. Now:
1) The palm OS is available and affordable to third party hardware makers. Already, prices on Palm hardware are half what they were, and very usable units are quickly approaching the $100 level.
2) Companies and developers, such as Philips, are sick of pouring money down a rathole, and are abandoning the platform.
3) The potential customer base has seen three versions of wince, none of which have been particulary usefull for a pda platform. All have had SERIOUS problems with desktop synchronization, resource consumption, backwards compatibility, and usability.
"Game over man". If this story is true, it is Microsoft trying a last minute punt to transition away from PDA's and into real time operating systems (where developers are smart enough to demand exclusively open software).
Bill Kilgallon
Not quite (Score:5)
- MS WinCE team has concluded that open source development tools are superior to MS' WinCE development tools
- MS is secretly funding ports of these tools to CE
The author then asks whether MS will take the next step and open-source WinCE, and answers his own question as "unlikely".Christopher A. Bohn
Nothing to do with Linux (Score:4)
Microsoft do not dominate the PDA market. Anything they do, therefore, is solely to beat Palm. And I'm sure lots of geeks know about palm beating.
There is a reason CE is not taking off (Score:3)
Take OAR's [oarcorp.com] RTEMS for example. It's small. It's quick. It has an IP stack. It runs on everything. It supports Ada. It supports multiple procs of different types. It's been around a long time.
CE has only 1 "feature" to make it stand out from the pack (IMHO) and that's the fact that the API tracks another non-RT os. Big deal. I don't think this has been enough to really launch it into it's target market yet.
I mean, good grief, look at the number of COMMERCIAL real time OSes out on the market right now that have been around for longer than CE. They picked a super competitive market, no wonder they are worried.
speaking of embedded
dv
Re:GPL Violation (Score:3)
They're likely not doing the porting just for internal use, because they want others to develope for CE so its superior on embedded applications. MS already has development tools, but 3rd party groups may not want to pay for them, etc. Microsoft is merely using the tools at hand, and one of them is open source. The more choice for developers, and the more freedom, the faster and more successful a platform evolves. Thus, automaticly creating FUD (the propiganda that MS might be intentially breaking the GPL, though without any hint of proof, or an argument for it) is just useless.
Anyways, I assume MS will silently get the open source development tools ported and public, and do their best to make it look like it comes from a 3rd party. That, or they neglect the idea entirely.
Even if (Score:3)
Will we be able to create our own distributions of Windows CE? Almost definitely not. Will we be able to fix the the underlying architecture problems? Very unlikely. Open source doesn't mean we can do what we want with it, just that it's also available in a alternative format to binary.
So what we would gain with an open source Windows CE is the ability to see what the OS is really doing, which is very useful for application developers.
I've got a Casio E-100 and love the hardware to pieces. Unfortunately, Windows CE drags its otherwise speedy 131 MhZ processor to almost a standstill. It's so bad it can't be anything but an architecture problem.
Check out the Linux port to Palm-sized and handheld PCs. It shows great promise of being able to replace Windows CE on handhelds soon.
LinuxCE [linuxce.org].