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Games Entertainment

Looking Glass Studios Closes 128

Posted by emmett from the boot-to-the-head dept.
Warrior writes: "Looking Glass Studios, makers of the System Shock series and Thief series, has closed it doors according to sources. GameSpy is reporting that the company plans to cease operations immediately. Despite strong sales of Thief II, the company was rumored to have financial problems. The story says there is no word on who will retain rights to the Thief and System Shock franchises."
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Looking Glass Studios Closes - WAIT FOR LINK TO COME BACK More

Looking Glass Studios Closes - WAIT FOR LINK TO COME BACK

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  • I hope Eidos learned its lesson. :(

  • A well written troll, but a troll nonetheless. Try harder next time. You'll get it, eventually.

  • It hits everyone in the industry,fairly consistently. Let's play the question the other way: Do you have any evidence that their games were *NOT* pirated?

    Of course they don't list it as a specific reason; the exact numbers aren't known, and it's hardly unique to them. It's just that the smaller studios have a harder time making ends meet to begin with.

    I have yet to hear of a game company which isn't suffering at least some from piracy. I don't see why we should assume this particular company is immune.

    And yes, I used this as a platform, because slashdot has a number of users who, to borrow Mr. Wall's phrase, can't tell the difference between giving and taking.

    They will never willingly admit that stealing from people has any connection to good companies going under, but you can remind them, and maybe occasionally a few will grow up.
  • Considering that Looking Glass's Flight Unlimited III models the Seattle area in stunning realism, including Microsoft's corporate campus and even Bill Gates' house, MS probably got a little too urked at the idea that gamers all over the world were repeatedly Kamikaze-bombing both places with the Beechjet 400A.
  • No, I think that moderation was just fine. Your post was stupid, irrelevant, immature, and not funny. The moderators are fine.
  • Just because you have a lot of software you never would have paid for doesn't mean you're in the clear. The real question isn't "Have you ever downloaded software you wouldn't have paid for?", but rather "Have you ever downloaded software you would have had to pay for otherwise?". As an admitted warez pup, you'd have to have had a lot of self-restraint to download all that software you don't need but still go out and fork over cash when you need something worth buying. Unless you're saying you wouldn't use any software if you had to pay for it.

  • Death of a Company, or Death of an Ideal (Score:4)

    by mdwyer ( 116536 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @08:26AM (#1047957) Homepage
    Looking Glass made some incredible games. There are no two ways about it. My personal favorite is System Shock. Allow me to give a brief history:

    So, they make a great game, but they miss Christmas, and then their publisher does no publicity at all. All the reviews are excellent, but no can pick up the game anywhere! I loved System Shock, but I finally had to dig it out of the $10 bin at some backwoods store.

    Why was it such a great game? It wasn't really the technology. It was a story so intense, and a world so sucessfully designed that you could sit in front of a glowing screen for hours thinking to yourself, "You know, if SHODAN wasn't such a bitch, Citidel Station would be a cool place to live!"

    Now Looking Glass is closing their doors. After critically acclaimed games that have ALWAYS gotten good reviews, they are out of business.

    Do we not respect story? Fully realized worlds? I think Half Life disputes that sufficiently. We are still able to put aside drooling on the wallpaper to enjoy the game.

    But it remains up to us to discover the great games, and bring them to the forefront, if the publishers and seller do not. Heard about a good game? For the sake of the art, BUY IT.
  • Ultima Underworld, System Shock and Thief were all great games that also pushed the envelope of gameplay. They all had good sequels. I can only believe that if Looking Glass management had been half as good as the game designers and programmers they would all be filthy rich. db

  • Who's over-advertising? (Score:4)

    by sammy baby ( 14909 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @08:31AM (#1047959) Journal

    In the scope of world tragedy, I have to agree that this isn't a huge loss. In the much smaller scope of game developers, however, this sucks rocks.

    IMNSHO, Looking Glass has been the only company around to produce games which were not only extremely immersive, but of uniformly high quality. These guys just couldn't write bad games (although they did release a couple of games which weren't huge hits).

    As for overspending on advertising: I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that's a function of the publisher. Eidos [eidos.com]. The guys who were gonna buy them, then backed out. The guys who have spent the last couple of years propping up Ion Storm [ionstorm.com] long enough to get Daikatana out the door.

    In the end, that's the real tragedy of the whole thing. Looking Glass released Thief, and System Shock 2, and Thief 2, all fantastic games, all within the time it took Ion Storm to get Daikatana out the door. And which company is still running? As a footnote: I distinctly remember Ion Storm running ads advertising John Romero's desire to "make you his bitch [gibbed.com]." If that's not over-spending on advertsing, I don't know what is.

  • The Ultima Underworlds got several of my otherwise non-gaming friends, many of them girls, too, completely hooked and were responsible for my worst (or best, depending on the point of view.. after all high school is not that important, right?) game addiction ever. The hours me and my best friend kept trying to beat Rodrick the Chaos Knight with a badly worn longsword.. I was really starting to hope something of this Underworld 3 petition but I guess we'll have to forget about that now. Sad news indeed. I just hope some other company will take over producing entertaining games for those of us who actually appreciate a storyline
  • For every valve out there, there has to be a dozen smaller shops that make bad games and turn out krap.

    What "krap" (sic)? Looking Glass put out some of the most innovative, immersive games ever made. Neither the Thief nor the System Shock series can be compared to any other game and neither fits comfortably into any of the established genres. Believe it or not, there are more and better types of games than those that involve a heavily armored tank slaughtering anything that moves. The Thief series, especially, was a masterpiece.

  • My friends and I used to call this "Doom neck" and mock each other for doing it. For the record however, System Shock I supported leaning long before Thief.
  • Having been a PC gamer for many years, I'm not surprised by this tired refrain. Quality game makers all over the place are closing up shop or canceling products. The size and number of the PC-specific game magazines is also decreasing.

    I've seen recent studies showing how console games are swamping PC game sales, and I'm really starting to believe it. Well, that and the fact that I'm also giving up PC games for consoles...

    So many console games are very lame. Very few have any sort of depth to them. Games like Ultima Underworld 1/2 and System Shock are different. These games pull you into an engrossing world and will consume much of your time till you beat it... That is if you can climb the learning curve. I think the problem is these days people want mindless mash the button reaction games. Not enough people have the time or desire to get used to the controls to play these games. (Kinda like progamming or unix... difficult at first but if you hang in there it becomes very rewarding. Althoug playing thes games are not nearly that hard/time consuming as unix/progamming)

    What a shame. I guess we should all go back to Windows 98 and sign on to AOL to check our mail, then go play Crash Bandicoot 3 on our PSX. I mean that is the easiest thing to do.

  • Thief 2 was selling well, as did a number of thier other games - that didn't seem to help them.

    I myself bought SS2 at release and haven't pirated any games since college (as I then had the finacial means to purchase any game I wanted). But I do not think software piracy is costing any software company a significant amount in sales - I think blaming a collapse like this on piracy is oversimplification, if not completely wrong.
  • How does it take a toll on the bottom line if not one of the people pirating the game would buy it anyway? Or if all the pirates go out and buy the game after deciding they like it? Once you factor in groups like that, the percentage of losses due to piracy is probably insignificant.

    People are far too quick to blame piracy for all the ills of the software industry, when there is little evidence to that effect. You simply can't say that just because you managed to track down 6000 seperate people who pirated something that you have lost 6000 in sales.

    Again, Thief and Thief II, as well as other games sold very well. They seemed to have other problems, mostly related to dealings of huge companies like Eidos, that sunk them.

    Don't blame on piracy that which can be explained by the carefree dancing of elephants over a rabbit.
  • This is probably due to "the type of complex managerial fuckup that keeps hackers awake at night."

    These are some of the best, most technically advanced and immersive computer games of all time.

    Let's all have a moment of silence, and then continue to agitate against the dominant software business model.

    -Omar

  • Actually, it wasn't just the Dark engine itself which added to the game's problems; excluding the spiders and the undead, the AI scripting of most the characters wasn't well planned.

    One of the most notorious examples of this was in the innocent bystanders' behaviors, which were identical to the guards' templates. Hence they were often pacing about with invisible swords clutched in their hands.
  • Looking Glass were IMHO, one of the best if not *the* best games games working in the PC space. They have released consistently excellent & innovative games over their many years. Unfortunately whilst receiving critical success, yet the majority of the games buying public seem happy to settle for yet another rehash of some crap title. I'm thinking Tomb Raider VIII - The Brasierre of Doom, or Fifa, or even [dons flameproof clothes here] Quake 3. This market is tied up pretty well by EA & Eidos and that sucks.

    Shame

  • It's really sad. A couple of years ago, Lucasarts and Looking Glass were the only two companies that seemed to be making consistently great games any more. Then Star Wars Episode 1 came out, and Lucasarts began churning out dozens of mediocre Star Wars games and a bunch of their best guys left, and now Looking Glass is gone too. Other recent events such as Richard Garriott leaving Origin (Though arguably he's 'lost it'), Peter Molyneux saying he'll only do console games from now on, Ron Gilbert's Cavedog folding and him going back to doing kids games, Warren Spector's Deus Ex has tied him up for years...

    All I can say is there had better be some new companies coming on the scene to take up the slack soon, because the PC game industry looks to be in serious trouble (From a quality POV)

    Of course my fondest dream is that Tim Schafer, Richard Garriott, (Probably a couple of other big names I've forgotten) and a bunch of Looking Glass and Lucasarts ex-employees all get together in one super company and produce great titles. These days that seems unlikely with any designer with one successful game under his belt going out on his own and losing all the effort of building a great team. But a guy can dream, can't he?
  • I doubt this is the last we'll see of LGlass. As seems to happen often in the game industry, the core members of the company -that is, the really talented individuals- will probably go off and create a new company.

    Since Eidos will still have the rights to Thief, this new company could easily continue right were they left off.

    This reminds me of what happened to Viacom's Septerra Core. Viacom closed, but the Septerra team kept working on the game, without pay for a while. And they eventually finished the game and got it to stores.

    Lets hope the same happens for Thief III; the "living city" idea sounds too compelling to just die.
  • But I'm starting to see a connection. Looking Glass were programmers. Many Slashdot readers are also programmers. They're busy looking out for Number One while simultaneously fucking everyone else over. Nice. Maybe if you were musicians, you'd have a different point of view.

    I'm a Slashdot Author, as well as a musician. Maybe you'd do well to check your sources first.

    You don't know why Looking Glass is out of business. It could have poor management of money, time, employees, or other resources. It could also just be a testament to the insanity that is the game industry. You can have a fantastic game, but games are the most expensive things to create, and also the riskiest investment in the tech industry. Things like this happen. It's sad, but it happens.

    --Emmett

  • Sad (Score:1)

    by hex15 ( 151239 )
    It's horrible that good orginal game developers close their doors while Westwood continues to make stupid Real time strategy games. (So what they started the genre?) Well I think the employes will find new places to work and hopefully make even better games.
  • I remember Theif, Thief II, and System Shock having excellent reviews.
    This is good evidence that good reviews don't mean success, and that the gaming industry, seen as some as a haven for programmers, can be a nasty place.
    And yet Ion "Egofest" Storm survives . . .

    Yeah, there is a saying in the movie industry:

    Guy: "Hey, didja see that movie eyes wide shut? I heard it was great!"
    Other Guy: "No, but I heard it was really good too."
    Guy: "I did not see it either, but I saw Die Hard 3."
    Other Guy: "Yeah, I saw it too. It really sucked."

    You can sort of see the point can't you?

    :/

  • The company's remaining assets will undoubtedly be sold off (including their IP) and the proceeds given to the company's stakeholders. Moron.
  • I'll tell you what I would like to see happen now is either a) release the titles to the open source community - which I really doubt they would have an interest in (can't say I blame them). Or b) perhaps Loki could get a handle on the titles (either straight purchase or through licensing) and port them to Linux while there's still a good market for them.

    Somehow I just don't see them giving up what they worked so had on just because they don't have any money. But it would be a shame if the code just disappears into the great Abyss only to resurface when it doesn't serve any good.
    It would be a nicer gesture than people pawning off failed projects on us.
  • the gaming scene is over

    I'd have to argue that point. Pending the breakup of Microsoft, we really don't know what's going to happen with windows. However, if any corporations want to really jump on the Linux bandwagon and pump it out to AOL using(yes, i know there are some really smart people out there who use AOL) kiddos at home, they're going to have to add lots of gaming support. Something similar to DirectX from Microsoft should do the trick(sound+graphics+interface+netcode.) Then they'd have to goto Africa and capture an 800 lb gorilla to force game companies to use their 'TuxLikes2Play' code.

  • Apparently you have not noticed that Daikatana has been the whipping boy of gaming for the last four years. Looking Glass however, has been praised innumerable times.

    Daikatana should just die die die.

    Good troll attempt though, work a little harder at it next time.
  • > I, for one, will delete all games off of my computer the moment I hear that Daikatana sells even half as many copies as Thief II has

    1/2 would be only 40,000 copies.

    The other reason LGS went belly up was due to "top heavy management"

    And the high paying Boston wages certainly didn't help either.
  • > try a game from a different genre for once, you might be positively surprised

    You mean, like Majesty [cyberlore.com] a nice blend of RTS+RPG ;-)
  • Ok, Ive been playing PC games for almost 13 years by now, and when I finally found a company with some of the smartest, scariest and cool games Ive ever found, only to find out that Eidos killed it. Come on, Eidos could have killed Laura Croft (havent DC killed Superman)! Alas, I only hope the publisher doesnt hand out the games to some lower grade company, or even to John Romero (imagine Garret with a machinegun)... They better bury Thief, SS and Ultima Underworld along with LG... Oh boy...
  • Obviously you've never played any of the Thief or System Shock games.

    I got bored with Deathmatch after playing Quake 1, which was not nearly as much fun multiplayer as Marathon. (King of the Hill in that huge circular arena with the strip...oh, the memories...)

    Do yourself a favor. Go spend $5 and play System Shock. With the lights off. If you dare.
  • Um... I'd just like to point out that this country was founded by a bunch of smugglers who didn't feel like paying taxes. America used to pretend it was about freedom... Now, it doesn't try as hard to pretend. Oh.. and as far as throwing people (or insisting they leave) when they don't share one's own socio-ecconomic philosphy... I don't think I need to say more.
  • Actually, certain friends of mine in college found that it was unusually difficult to burn or wrip off copies of Theif, System Shock II, etc. I'm not saying it can't be done... just that Looking Glass Studios actually went to a decent ammount of effort to make it a pain in the ass to do. Frankly, Looking Glass Studios would be the last company I'd expect to see wripped off, if only because they're smart about it. I'm no expert, but to me it seems like the exact opposite of writing an encryption standard for DVD's which isn't hardy enough to withstand Linux geeks for more than a few months.

    I'm sorry to see the company go, but I don't think this one can be chalked up to piracy.
  • This is a truely sad state of afairs.

    I truely regret this turn of events, and I think I may actually wear black tomorrow, and mourn their passing.

    And I think I speak for many of us when I say this:
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOWCOULDYOULEAVEUSLOOKINGGLASSNOWWEAREATTHEMERCYOF JONROMEROOHWOEI SUSWOEISUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Who cares if they had announced their next big product? Regardles, Looking Glass was one of the most consistent groundbreakers in both gameplay and technology. They practically invented the FPS with Underworld, and then re-invented it as the first person "sneaker" with Thief. Terra Nova was the first squad-based FPS game... see "Tribes" three years later... Let's not forget that Half-Life owes a HUGE debt to LG's original System Shock.

    For me, it is a big loss. I just hope the LG/Irrational teams pop up soon, as the Roberts brothers did with MS, or Warren Spector did with Ion Storm.

    --

  • 'cause a) the games are still being sold, and b) Eidos more than likely owns the rights, and Eidos isn't the one going out of business.

    --

  • "Other than Half-Life, all the games by Looking Glass (well, not the golf or flight sim ones) are the only reason that I still have a Windows partiton. "

    And Half-Life was *very* similar to System Shock in many ways...

    --

  • I didn't know I was emotionally attached to a game until I read that. System Shock 2 is one of the best games I've ever played. Only one patch issued (or needed) and that was to add multiplayer - something they didn't promise in the game in the first place. It's got to set some kind of record for a developer going out of business so soon after winning so many sites and mags "Game of the Year and of the Year awards" Just about everything they released over the years was innovative and ahead of it's time - in some way, Ultima Underworlds, Terra Nova, System Shock 1&2, Flight Unlimited 1-3, Theif 1&2. They pushed the envelope everywhere they went. This is just a damned shame.
  • Geez, sounds like a broken record

    Anyway, Eidos and EA hold the rights to all Looking Glass games - I doubt they're going to open the source anytime soon.

    --

  • Come on, try to hack my 31337 firewall! [localhost]

    Why are you hosting a copy of my site on your firewall box!!! Damn it, take it down or I'm going to sue you for copyright infringement!!!

    (btw, if anyone didn't get it, that was a joke...)
  • ...a capitalist country, and America is definitely that...

    Awww, come on. We're getting more and more socialist all the time. Still capitalist, yes. But we're capitalists with welfare, social security, a graduated income tax, unemployment benefits, and plenty of government subsidies.
  • so do I, as this mistake has resulted in the loss of one of the most innovative gaming companies I've ever seen...... What I would like to know is, where did the money go? I think the managment of both LS and Eidos has a lot to answer for, considering the size of the cult followings of the LS games.....
  • Amen. This news both saddens and angers me. LG was the best game house out there, period, and made games that required you to think. System Shock 2 is one of my favorite games ever. Too bad that kind of thing doesn't sell enough to the "masses". Sigh...
  • To be honest, we didn't use Linux for developing SS2. The mkisofs used was actually a win32 port, which apparently didn't output the right OS string in the ISO headers. Doh. p.s. Linux development on future titles was not being completely ignored when the company's doors closed...
  • USG produced some fine games, and a fair amount of dreck in their time, but EIDOS Interactive is a large conglomerate now. an admittedly fairly old article here [dfcint.com] talks of how US Gold and Domark merged to form the company originally amid large mergers, including USG's main rival, Ocean with Infogrames. Of course more joined later, Core Design infamously. I don't know that much about internal politics, but EIDOS definitely seem to be more marketing than games oriented these days (flogging the Tomb Raider franchise to extinction, turning quite an original game into a shell of it's former self being a prime example). If you're business-minded, you can see they're just covering their collective butts by doing this, just diverting money from what they consider non-essential (read: less profitable) projects to those which stand to make a killing (And let's face it, Romero's return is going to generate an *awful* lot of revenue, whether the game is any good or not). It's not right, and it is extremely sad, but bitching isn't going to help.

    Breaking into games programming and development is one of the toughest nuts a geek can crack, but there must be at least a few of us that could muster the time and energy to do it, regardless of platform, and if Open-Source projects can reap capital by being clued up, so can games. It would be too cool (However (un)likely), if we could take the games back, and show the next generation of gamers what they're missing now the marketers are in control.

    To the LG boys and girls, we're on your side here. You were one of the few companies I know who could truly claim innovation a lot of the time, and one of the few where every sequel was a better game. On top of that, SS1 and 2 allowed us to experience paranoia in space in a way that only Mac people had (in the form of Marathon) before. As a company, you will be sorely missed. As programmers and gamers, you shall righteously kick ass in greener pastures, I'm sure.

  • Well, being a newbie here, i rarely feel comfortable weighing in on these discussions, but i feel that the barrel of tripe that i've just read demands a reply of some kind...

    Steeltoe, what world are you living in? Open-source is one thing, but you're basically making excuses for out-and-out theft of intellectual property here... And, while i, personally, am a big proponent of the GPL model of licensing, the choice of such things does, last time i checked, remain in the hands of those who create the art in question.

    Are you truly so interested in living in a world where you can't choose how what you create should be disseminated? i'm not. (To paraphrase, cos i don't recall the exact quote) "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is what you're pointing at, albeit obliquely. While i'm not 100% innocent (shame on me) of this myself, at least i don't try to defend my stance as a moral one. There is no moral justification for the removal from a person or entity of any kind that which they have created. (And, not to start a flamewar or anything, that's my stance on the whole MS issue, too :/ )


    C
    ---------------------------------------------
    It's funny, but i don't see anything small or

  • No matter how bad Diakatana is, there is one thing you must remember. Ion Storm releases nothing but crappy games. Let's see. Dominion: sucked! Diakatana: sucked! Therefore, I reason that Ion Storm is a creater of crap. And BTW, LGS sold more copies of excellent games than Ion Storm did. All Ion Storm had was Boobies (KillCreek) and Dominion: Storm Over Gift 3. You can't honestly expect me to beleive that LGS didn't warrant some cash for System Shock 1 and Theif but Ion Storm did warrant $20M for Dominion?

    Now, KillCreek might be worth $20M, but that's my personal sex craved opinion. ;)

    Bad Mojo [rps.net]
  • While I've not played system schock, I have played Thief, and while there were a few bad design decisions(ZOMBIES!?!?!?!?!WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING!), it was one of the few FPS that I actually really enjoyed. It requires skill, and cunning. You don't just go around killing. When you do kill and opponenet, its suspensful- I remember clearly killing a guard, rushing to a door, trying desperately to pick its lock, then opening it just in time to avoid the next guard. Additionally, the AI is amazing. Its not a "good shot" or some silly virtue that is seen in Quake games. Its a really intellegent, almost human opponnent. Also, I'm a great fan of both their Ultima Underworld(which I never really got into when they were first out, but I purchased at a used games store), and Terra Nova, which was really quite fun. Almost like Starship Troopers. And the graphics were even fairly good. Same with UU.
  • Here's my report on the end of Looking Glass. [globe.com] Seems they had the rug pulled out from under 'em...
  • Strong sales or not, piracy takes a toll on the bottom line.

    --

  • Let's not forget the amazing game Flight Unlimited. It was really cutting-edge when it got out, but it did lack some playability tough.

    This will be a great loss to all flightsim fans.

    --
    "Trying is the first step towards failure."



  • They are just deciding to no longer be in the ranks of the legit.

    Garett is their president now, and under his expert tutilage, they will be silently swiping valuable Mings and golden chalaces in a city near you (as opposed to dealing with stiff-shirt Suts and bonds and investors and such.) With the type of funding they can get under this new management, it is likely that we'll see Thief 3 in no time.

    *sigh*

    Hey, I can still dream... that's a good sign.

    May the One shine in us all, even if we wish our mechanical eye could shed a tear.
    --WorLord
  • Suuuure. Maybe for the suits. But the artists get a tiny FRACTION of the $16 a CD costs. We're talking a buck a CD for platinum sellers.

    I work in the music industry, and went to school for four years learning the biz, so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

    --

  • Sob, whimper, moan.... I missed dinner again last night buzzing the Seattle skyline. I've got FU95, FU-II, and FU-III. Even their early stuff makes MSFS2K look like an amateurish ripoff. Oh wait, it is....

  • word from the L.Glass family ... (Score:5)

    by joelin0 ( 192311 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @09:12AM (#1048005) Homepage
    Having been very close friends and a roommate to one of the LG programmers for the past 3+ years... I think I can safely say that not only were these people incredibly talented and brilliant game developers, but they were also tremendous human beings.

    I had a chance to meet, hang out with, and play quake against alot of the LG'ers the past couple of years through my roommate Darren. From Tom Leonard, to Con Hantzopolous, to James and Liz Fleming - they are some incredibly cool and warm people. They'll all do well in their future with whatever avenues they choose. I speak for myself when I say this (so don't quote me).. but from the conversations I had last night about this .. almost expect another company to rise up out of this.

    Godspeed LG ...
  • http://mail-abuse.org/rbl/ - kills spammers dead
    http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 - Get paid to surf

    Hrm, am I the only one who finds that .sig ironic? Maybe thats the point.

    Anyway, the sales of their sofware were strong, I doubt piracy affected their bottem line very much. The reason they folded was beacuse Eidos backed out of a deal to buy them, since they had spent all their money on daikatana and their stock price collapsed. If you want to blame anyone, blame Eidos or John Romero. Not software piracy.
  • "strong sales". So, if something does well, that proves that there are no conditions under which it would have done better?

    If there are people who decided not to buy the game because they could warez it, that's less money for the company. If there were enough of those people, that would make the difference.

    Do you think that only unpopular games that no one likes are copied? Do you think warez dudez sit around saying "I need a suckier game"? They steal the same things that other people buy, by and large. If a game is cool enough for a couple hundred thousand people to buy it, it's cool enough for some people to steal it.

    The video game industry is full of close calls, full of companies "on the edge". That little margin is often a lot smaller than the amount of warez involved.

  • Sad news indeed. I just hope some other company will take over producing entertaining games for those of us who actually appreciate a storyline

    Take a look at Bungie Software's offerings - Bungie actually bother crafting something approaching a plot for almost all of their games (as evidenced by the ongoing discussion of the Marathon story [bungie.org] years after it was released). Better still, Loki ported Bungie's Myth II to Linux, so there is hope that we might see Oni [bungie.com] and Halo [bungie.com] at some point. Plot/story/whatever make a huge impact on the longeivity and repeat playability of a game, and it's sad to see a company like Looking Glass shut it's doors, regardless of the rest of the industry.

    Cheers,

    Toby Haynes

  • I've been a huge fan of their games since Ultima Underworld (a first person RPG only loosely tied to the rest of the Ultima series). They are, as far as I'm concerned, the most innovative and consistently excellent developer around. Every game they've done has brought something new to gaming. Three games on the Dark Engine later, there's still nothing else out there with a sound system to match, and even Half-Life could learn a few things about integrating story into gameplay from Thief (1&2) and SS2.

    The way the gaming industry works, I'm sure if these guys want to stick together, they will be able to get a deal somewhere under a different name. But it's still incredibly sad to see LG close down. If not for them being in Boston (I like California too much), I would have tried to get a job there long ago.

    Bye, LG. Don't let idiots get hold of those licenses (Thief and SS) if you can help it.

  • I have been playing the hell out of this game, and all I can say is WOW! Nobody makes better games than Looking Glass and I am sad, disappointed, and a little pissed off that they will be gone.
  • Having been a PC gamer for many years, I'm not surprised by this tired refrain. Quality game makers all over the place are closing up shop or canceling products. The size and number of the PC-specific game magazines is also decreasing.

    I've seen recent studies showing how console games are swamping PC game sales, and I'm really starting to believe it. Well, that and the fact that I'm also giving up PC games for consoles...
  • I think anyone who sees the gaming industry as a haven for programmers hasn't really seen the gaming industry. Making games is not like playing games. The hours are long, and the pay is generally less then you'd get in other fields (not always, just generally). You have to love making games to last in the gaming industry. If you don't, don't get into games.
  • I was not saying that looking glass put out krap. I guess I failed to articulate that. The origional post discussed game development jobs as a haven. Valve has gotten a lot of good press, well deserved BTW, and could be viewed as one of those safe havens. My point was that for every valve (a safe haven) there are more places like head games (krap!) (a hell hole, reference a letter to the editor in PC Gamer several months back). Looking glass, while a great developer was in trouble and could not be called a safe haven.

    CP

    OT: Yes, I spell krap with a k, I like it better that way.

  • Objectives of developing games (Score:5)

    by Aero ( 98829 ) <erwin71mNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday May 25, 2000 @10:26AM (#1048014)

    Normal:

    • Have an idea. Doesn't have to be a good one.
    • Form a design team. Doesn't have to stay together.
    • If game is somewhere between 50% and 75% finished at Halloween, cut whatever corners are necessary to get game on shelves before Christmas.
    • Ship on Marketing's ship date. Why pay beta testers when there are thousands of gamers who will pay to beta-test the game?
    • Stay out of the bargain bin for at least 3 months.

    Hard:

    • Have an idea. Make sure it isn't a total rehash, or simply an excuse to wrap expensive eye candy around not much game.
    • Form a design team. Keep them together during the entire project.
    • Test and tweak sufficiently to warrant a version number of 1.0 (at least) on the gold master.
    • Don't listen to Marketing, but still try to get the game out in time for Christmas if it looks like release will be in Q4.
    • Sell 100,000 units.

    Expert:

    • Have an idea. If you're rehashing, make sure it's a rehash of something you've done, and make sure you're doing it better this time. Even this much rehashing is only permissible in a sequel.
    • You've got a design team because, with few exceptions, your people don't leave.
    • Make sure the game works. Nobody wants to download patches. Nobody catches all the bugs, true, but the game should be fundamentally sound out of the chute.
    • Don't set a release date. Don't let Marketing set a release date. Screw Christmas.
    • Sell 250,000 units.
    • Don't kill anyone. Depriving QA personnel of normal lives during beta testing is allowed, though.

    Too many developers play at Normal, and game companies aren't the only culprits. Not nearly enough play at Hard, and a literal handful even try Expert. And now there's one fewer of those. Damn shame.

    Aero

  • :-( (Score:1)

    by milph ( 96370 )
    No System Shock 3. Even if someone else picks up the franchise, without the same creative people, it wouldn't be the joy that is System Shock. I'm in denial about this.
  • These guys made the greatest games. My favorite games of all time Ultima Underword 1/2, System Shock 1 and 2!

    What is up with the industry!?

  • http://members.aol.com/thief2metalage/

    Pictures, the story during the last meeting...

  • While I was no longer with the company (Irrational) at the time, having a bit of a window into the situation I can safely say it is *nowhere* near as simple a situation as that posting about the wood/coffin/nail makes it out to be, in regards to the relationship between Irrational and LG. Most of the developers didn't have to see the relationship between the two companies, as it was kept out of the way so that the developers could focus on, well, developing. However, the relationship did get extremely strained at times, and definitely was not as onesided as Irrational just unexpectedly pulling out.

    Besides, if the advances LG was getting were going to go to Irrational for development (ie, the team was not internal to LG), then the loss of that income was matched by a loss of costs as well, so while they were denied some hypothetical profit, that's the most you can account for in that regard.

    From an ex-Irrational and ex-LG programmer...
  • Of course, I guess all my old friends there are now ex-employees ... :-( Anyways, I left the company a while ago, to help found Irrational Games, the company that did most of the actual development of System Shock 2 (LG provided the engine and a couple of key people), I was the lead programmer on that game and a programmer on the original System Shock (as well as some minor contributions to Thief, Terra Nova, and Flight Unlimited). It is incredibly sad to see a great company like LG be forced to close down shop. I'll always remember fondly my time there.

    Fortunately, as has been commented on elsewhere, the talented people that are the heart and soul of LG will be able to land at any number of other companies. There are some great developers right there in Boston, plus I'm sure anyone there will have no problem staying in the industry if they want to move to CA or TX. Still sad though -- incredible games are a result of a gestalt effort, a true synergy. There has to be the right mix of people, and ideas and an environment that can be the catalyst.

    LG had all those elements, but unfortunately never received commercial success to match the critical success. Why exactly that is is a long discussion in and of itself, and no one can really be sure, but marketing, accessiblity, genre, poor timing, and hardware reqs no doubt all had a component. However, the Underworld games, and the System Shock games, and Flight Unlimited all made a fair amount of money for LG. Unfortunately Terra Nova and British Open Golf were *REALLY* bad failures and nearly took the company down with them.

    Honestly, it's incredible that the company has survived as long as they have, doing expensive, ambitious games without a ton of commercial success to match. But every time before, they were able to make it through. I guess eventually their luck ran out. Again, a sad day...

    One other note in regards to rights: Electronic Arts owns the IP and the source code to the System Shock games and the Underworld games. So anyone hoping for a public release of it is probably out of luck (and really, anyone with that kind of energy is really better served channeling it towards a new game with modern technology).

    Even though I haven't been directly invovled with LG for a year or so, it is still incredibly touching to see the reaction the public and press have had to this unfortunate turn of events. It's nice to know that even if we aren't all driving around Ferraris that our games were appreciated -- that is what truly counts.

    (For reference, I'm no longer with Irrational Games either -- I don't want anyone to think I am speaking for them)
  • Awww, come on. We're getting more and more socialist all the time. Still capitalist, yes. But we're capitalists with welfare, social security, a graduated income tax, unemployment benefits, and plenty of government subsidies.

    "... and a handgun in every school locker" -- Which is why I'm so glad I wasn't born/brought up in the Land of the "free".

  • But the question isn't have their products been pirated (of course they have) but was that a factor in their closure. No. Would it be nice if every company would actually get the money that piracy deprives them of? Yes. But piracy is one of the prices of doing business in software. Beyond deciding what measures to take to prevent piracy they don't take any actions based upon the fact of piracy.
  • I'd buy more games if people would bother making games that run on linux on low end pentium machines. Until then, I vote with my wallet by not buying games that won't run on my hardware.
  • Thief: The Dark Project blew me out of my chair. Eight minutes into the first level, I was yelling at my wife to come look at this thing. Nobody else has ever made such a detailed immersive environment, and I've NEVER encountered a better sound system in a videogame. Thief II lived up to all of my expectations, and I blasted through in about a week. I can't believe the company's gone, and I'm surprised about how upset I am by this.

  • Re:Bad news.. (Score:3)

    by FreshView ( 139455 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @09:17AM (#1048024) Homepage
    Edios didn't necessarily give that money to Ion Storm just to fund Daikatana. It was given to Ion Storm as a whole, in order to buy out Ion Storm, Eidos now has a 51% stake in Ion Storm.

    Looking Glass had their shot, their problem was that their games didn't appeal to a mass audience, it's sad to see a quality company go down, and it's even sadder to think that in order to succeed, you have to pander to the masses, but it also seems accurate.

    BTW: I haven't yet purchased DK, but I probably will, I did enjoy the demo.
  • No need to be ashamed. Your integrity finally won out, overwhelmed by the sheer quality of the games. Good for you.

    If only every warez d00d who ever ripped off a Looking Glass game was so honest...

  • MS flightsim wasn't always that way.
    When Bruce Artwick's company was bought out by microsoft, FS started getting that distinct "Microsoft" flavor (ie buggy, with more unneeded features to appeal to a broader audience). Honestly, the graphics don't look like they've changed a whole lot from FS95 to FS2000. Ground textures different, more airports, and more detail, but it still looks like a cardboard world. I will admit I like the clouds in FS2000 better than FUIII, and well.. flying the concorde is cool. I like to see how fast I can get it going to crash straight down from 60k feet into a heavily populated area-- that's always fun.

    I had to buy FS2000 just because I've owned every version of FS back to Flight Simulator II on the apple. I also own every version of FU-- including both the DOS and Win95 versions of the original.

    I was immediately hooked on FU the first time I did an inverted spin in the Sukoi(sp?) and watched it from the "flyby" external view. Just starting that thing up was fun to listen to with a subwoofer.
    It was the first ever simulation with lens flare (OK, Falcon 3.0 had sun glare).
    It was the first ever (consumer) flight sim with real physical modelling for the flight model.
    It even had voice training, with an instructor that responded to your moves! And it didn't require a patch for several months, incredible.
    That was some amazing stuff, and it even ran on my 486-80!

  • When will we see Underworld 3!

    I hope Morrowind [elderscrolls.com] will recomfort us of this loss.

  • So when is it gonna be released under the GPL 8*) Seriously tho, any chance that Loki could get their hands on the code and port it? That would be pretty neat.

    Sealbeater
  • The Ultima Underworlds got several of my otherwise non-gaming friends, many of them girls, too, completely hooked and were responsible for my worst (or best, depending on the point of view.. after all high school is not that important, right?) game addiction ever.

    yeah, remember when ultima underworld came out.. me and my friends played it for hours and hours straight...
    I'm still hoping someone will make a ultima wonderworld III though.
    With the development in hardware since I & II came out, they could do a really cool game. I just hope if it gets done they just don't go mad with the effects, but actually do a good rpg game, if not they better not do it at all.
  • As a side note ... it began almost immediately after the announcement.

    I know of LG people getting voicemail from rabid recruiters less than an hour after it got reported. Messed up ... they're like crazed vultures those dudes.
  • Nice moderation. This wasn't an attempt at flaming anyone or pissing anyone off, this was meant to be mildly funny.

    Maybe I have too much time on my hands. Maybe some of the moderators need to be a little less serious. Maybe we all could use a vacation. :)

    -Zane

  • Anonymous Info Posted Elsewhere (Score:5)

    by StrutterX ( 181607 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @10:57AM (#1048032)
    Posted in the evil avatar and fat babies forums:

    Start quote:

    Well, gee, I guess not all of us can be as hugely
    successful as some people around here.

    And, I'm happy to know we have such industry luminaries
    who know so much about the inner workings and
    sales numbers of LG writing our epitaph.

    To make things clear:

    0) Underworld 1/2, System Shock, Flight Unlimited 1
    all sold very well, and were not money losers. Terra
    Nova, BOCG, and FUIII sold poorly, and were. Viacom
    killed the torturous hell of ST:V. FUII was break-even. BOCG
    and TN left the company with a pretty big hole.

    1) Thief sold *much, much* better than has been portrayed
    in this thread, and at a very high average per-copy price. The
    average retail price didn't drop below $30 until nine months
    after we shipped. Including OEM deals it made millions
    for LG.

    2) SS2 didn't sell as well as hoped, but it was produced for
    only a small margin over advances. It didn't sink us.

    3) [The wood] One project was grossly undersold to publisher A,
    and we mismanaged it to make the effect even worse. This
    incurred unexpected costs.

    4) [The coffin] After the team signed up to do a game signed
    with publisher B bailed (unexpectedly and uncooly), publisher
    B had grounds to pull out, did, and subtracted millions from
    the LG FY2000/2001 budget. This was a disaster.

    5) [The nails] Publisher C had stock, cash, other product
    schedule slips, and banking issues that killed the acquisition
    of LG that had been under LOI.

    So there we were. Plenty of long-term income potential in
    the briskly selling Thief 2, and signed deals. No short term
    operating capital. Can't pay the bills, can't pay salaries?
    Can't keep the doors open.

    End quote

    Someone else pointed out that:

    "gross mismanagement following last year's buyout of Looking Glass by Intermetrics is what doomed the company"

    Just reporting what I've read, and they ain't my opinions, because I wouldn't know!

    StrutterX

  • Bad news.. (Score:5)

    by jeremy f ( 48588 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @08:08AM (#1048033) Homepage
    Apparently, Eidos was set to buy Looking Glass completly, which had been going through a financial crisis (mostly due to having Eidos as a publisher), but Eidos themselves were strapped for cash, so they decided not to buy Looking Glass.

    This is what happened.

    The real kicker is that they (Eidos) donated $20 million to Ion Storm to help John Romero get Daikatana out the door. I, for one, will delete all games off of my computer the moment I hear that Daikatana sells even half as many copies as Thief II has, or recieves a single greater review than any of Thief II's reviews.
  • I remember Theif, Thief II, and System Shock having excellent reviews.

    This is good evidence that good reviews don't mean success, and that the gaming industry, seen as some as a haven for programmers, can be a nasty place.

    And yet Ion "Egofest" Storm survives . . .
  • Okay, who here who reads magazines (computer magazines you perv) or surfs the web regulary hasn't seen an ad for Thief II. I've seen plenty of them everywhere. It's no surpise that they have strong sales records then, probablly due to the advertising.

    However, is that how they shot themselves in the foot? Did they spend too much on advertising, it sold the game, but was it more than they could hand out?

    I honestly don't know, but there's some speculation for you. With the success that Thief II is getting, they will likely be bought out by someone like EA or Sierra (doesn't EA own Sierra?) Anyway, we have Thief II and they don't have any killer games planned that I know of so not a huge loss.

  • I love System Shock 2. I haven't played an immersive game like this for years. I would play this game until 5am and actually got scared (I jumped ;)). A definite good game! I never got into System Shock 1 and Thief games though.

    I hope the SS2 community can get ahold of the editor to keep the game alive. There is a thread about it: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000533. html ... DOOM, Quake, Duke Nukem, etc. are still alive and popular because of editors. Now, if SS2 can do the same... :)

  • Looking Glass was definately one of my favorite companies for games. Thief was one of the most innovative 1st person games I'd seen. With it's attention to sound, light (You gotta love the idea of a 'water arrow'!) and my favorite of all first-person game moves: The lean.

    For YEARS I had been sitting in my chair leaning forward to 'peek' around a corner in games like Doom, Duke Nukem, Quake, et. al. (and NO, it didn't work, but it never stopped me from tryint!) Then came Thief, a game where I could actually do that digitally!! Seriously cool!

    I'm sorry to see a company with such an innovative perspective close up so quickly.. (I mean, Thief II just came out just a few months ago!)

    Back to the search for new and innovative games!
  • It is my understanding that Eidos was their publisher. If anyone was in a position to help looking glass it would have been Eidos. However, they are in a bit of financial trouble themselves (I dunno for sure, just guessing by the stock price). They also took on that Ion Storm albatross, so if you want to blame anyone blame them.

    CP

  • Flight unlimited is one of the best Flightsims that I know, flight engine wise, it uses true aerodinamics and physics.. ever try to fly a tailslide* in those "cheap immitation" sims ?

    I really hope they will release the source for those games..

    * For those who don't know what a tailslide is, you fly your plane straight up and slowly cut power to the engine, if your engine has enough power you can "hover" the plane, now cut more power untill the plane starts falling backwards, it then flips over nose down, picks up speed and continues flying..

  • Re:This sucks. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Come on, try to hack my 31337 firewall! [127.0.0.1]

    Ha, ha. Not only have I hacked your puny little firewall, but I believe that I have taken down the entire net.

    I can't ping anyone now!

  • I was just hanging with some LG/former LG folks
    at a party and it didnt look like anyone had
    any idea this was coming. Its a real shocker to have all those weekend workdays slapped in the trash bin.... sad.
    LG had a PILE of really talented people I'm sure *many* little companies are going to go nuts over... so with a wide grin let me say the opening words:

    LET THE FEEDING FRENZY BEGIN!

    (My personal prediction is that Irrational will slurp up a bunch of talented folks that still want to do games)

  • Vote with your wallet! (Score:3)

    by Majix ( 139279 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @09:45AM (#1048042) Homepage
    If you look at the sales statistics of PC games you'll notice that most games sell surprisingly few copies. A game can be called successful today if it manages to ship over 10 000 units. When we're talking about quantities this small, every single sale counts!

    This has been said before, but I'll say it again: If you don't want to be playing Tomb Raider and RTS clones the rest of your life, support quality games by *buying* them. Don't warez that copy of Escape from Monkey Island, support LucasArts as one of the last makers of classic adventure games! Buy a Jane's simulation game, while they still make them!

    Don't settle for that cloned, watered down, so called game, try a game from a different genre for once, you might be positively surprised!
  • Looking Glass... Looking Glass...

    Got it... they are the ones who made Ultima Underworld, right? Now *that* was a game I really enjoyed.

    Nostalgia aside, it's too bad they are closing, since I can't remember a crappy game from them. How did this came to be? (then again, I haven't played games lately... don't have the patience).

    Regards.

  • Bleh (Score:4)

    by Steeltoe ( 98226 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @11:30AM (#1048054) Homepage
    "Feeling guilty" is just a way for someone or something to have control over you. Right now you're trying to have control over people "pirating" (what a lame word). It's very obvious, but we're so used to it we don't think about it. We're affected though, even if it really doesn't change our habits, it changes how we feel about ourselves.

    You may think that this is allright, but it's really not. So what if a company dies a horrible death? It's just a company, not living. Why should anyone of us feel guilty of their bad business decisions? It was totally out of our reach for us, and to pretend otherwise is controversial at best. Why do you want to push _bad feelings_ on thousands of people? What good do you really think that is? If you think that every means is justifiable to meet an end, well I could just kill you to make you shut up (ironic).

    1) The capitalistic market we're living in doesn't permit fringe awesome quality games that Looking Glass has made (Ultima Underworld I & II, Thief I & II, etc. We shouldn't feel guilty because we're living in a world where Brittney Spears tops the rankings, and Smashing Pumpkins have to give up against the marketing machine. We should _change_ it, promote change at the very least. It doesn't help to whine.

    2) Was piracy really any worse for Looking Glass' products than for any others? Would it really matter, with more money they could just as well do bigger mistakes. Who knows? Stop putting people down!

    3) If all games were sold at the price they have now, and it was impossible to pirate them, I wouldn't play much. That wouldn't be a bad thing either. Not that I'm playing much now anyways, I'm thinking more of before, and hell, at that time I would perhaps afford to get ripped off buying a game every 2 months (if I used up all my allowance).

    I'm sad that the people behind Looking Glass have to go through this. They surely don't deserve it, but I'm sure they'll be offered good jobs in other companies. Liff sucks and all that.

    I would be happy to pay the price to play games all the time. On occations I buy games I really want or if they're huge (1 CD, most are these days). But even though I make alot of money, doesn't mean I can afford all the games I want to try. Besides, most of the times I've bought a game I've felt REALLY ripped off!

    Yes, life is controversial and full of dilemmas. But if we stop fighting and controlling each other, instead do good, there's a much better chance for us.

    - Steeltoe

    Yes, I know my opinions suck ;-)
  • I have to agree. Eidos donated too much money to wrong company. LGS should have gotten it. I did not like Daikanta at all. I hope the game developers of LGS continue to make awesome games. :(

  • This really really sucks.

    In my personal list of my top 10 favorite games of all time, a full 6 of those are Looking Glass games. The only complaint that I ever had about their software is that it was not ported to Linux. Other than Half-Life, all the games by Looking Glass (well, not the golf or flight sim ones) are the only reason that I still have a Windows partiton.

    I was really hoping for Loki to port some of their stuff. :(

    For those of you who have NOT tried a Looking Glass game (or anything by Warren Spector, now of Ion Storm) I STRONGLY urge you to buy one. Thief I/II and System shock I/II are simply mind boggling in their depth. Of those four titles, only one is currently "expensive" that one is Thief II. The rest lie in the bargin bin. System Shock should run under Dosemu (Have not tried).

    So, even though this wonderful game company is dissapering it does not mean that we should forego their wonderful games.

    *sigh*

    Now my only hope is Warren Spectors "Deus Ex [deusex.com]"

    I'll miss you guys.

  • Re: Addendum to this thread... (Score:5)

    by antdude ( 79039 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @08:19AM (#1048061) Homepage Journal
    More on that ShockEd from http://www.ttlg.com/forums/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000543. html thread:

    "The employees didn't know of the closure until this afternoon. I was immediately notified, and because of this, I now have ShockEd and the mission files in my hands as we speak.

    I'm going to make sure if it's okay to post everything that we're under NDA for, then I will go ahead and release ShockEd to the public. Or maybe wait until we get it working properly before tampering with it."

  • Some good news at least (Score:3)

    by CausticPuppy ( 82139 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @08:19AM (#1048063)
    One of the senior designers at LG posted in rec.aviation.simulators that they were still working out if/how to finish up Jane's Attack Squadron which was nearing completion. Here's a snippet:
    Third, I want to comment on Jane's Attack Squadron (err, we STILL call it Flight Combat in the pit). There is a good chance that we may actually finish the game. It's been a LONG haul for the team, 28 months to be exact, and with about 2 months left to go it would be a shame to not see it ship. We really want to finish it. And although I can't speak for EA, we think that they want to finish it too. But it's all up to the creditors (the game is bonded, which is a good thing), who are coming in tomorrow to look at the game. And that's all I can really say about that. I'll know more by tomorrow afternoon.

    I don't know if anybody here is a flight sim buff, but I am, and having the graphics engine + flight model of the Flight Unlimitd series, combined with the ability to SHOOT STUFF (finally!) would make me..... so happy......

  • Irrational Games - Pheonix from the Ashes (Score:3)

    by DrVital ( 134314 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @11:48AM (#1048070)
    While Looking Glass has done many amazing things over the last few years, a number of former LG team members are currently working for Irrational Games. This is the same company that produced Shock II, and are now doing "The Lost" for Crave. They are keeping the tradition of quality story and gameplay alive. http://www.irrational-games.com/

  • Don't worry, folks! (Score:3)

    by seebs ( 15766 ) on Thursday May 25, 2000 @08:22AM (#1048074) Homepage
    Thanks to the magic of software piracy, you'll still be able to get all the games they've released, at the same price you've always paid.

    Remember, software piracy doesn't hurt developers, crappy and overpriced products do.

    Keep repeating it, maybe someday you won't feel guilty anymore.

    (Disclaimer: I know full well most pirates don't feel guilty anyway.)

    *sigh*.

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