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Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Sun Feb 06, 2000 01:45 PM
from the check-this-out dept.
from the check-this-out dept.
pb writes "Freshmeat has an excellent editorial about geek chicks. A lot of free software projects these days could really use that woman's touch. "
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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
My gawd!! (Score:4)
It's just like those offensive daemon babes *BSD saw fit to subject us to at LinuxWorld.
We're [female Linux hackers] not here in force because we get the (both implicit and explicit) message that we're not wanted.
No difference (Score:3)
What is this supposed to mean? When I look at open-source projects these days, I don't see a male-oriented slant or perspective on them. I see a computer slant. It's not like GNOME icons feature naked women or anything.
Option 3 in the article I think is the best. Hackerdom doesn't need to be changed to allow more women in as women geeks already seem to fit in quite nicely. It's not as if the community isn't accepting now, and when (not if) more women go into technology fields, I don't see a radical shift in programming or ideology or ideas. Why? Because they're all geeks! Geekiness is gender-neutral, AFAIK. Yes, geeks tend to be male, but they don't have the same issues involving maleness that, say, jocks and Wall Street investors have.
The problem isn't a geek one. The problem is a social one, and as more and more computer filter into daily life, you'll see more women. The only benefit that we're going to get by having more female geeks is the same one that we get by having more geeks in general: more innovating people.
ps. Wasn't this argument already beaten into the ground here on Slashdot about a month ago?
Ironic... (Score:5)
--
Ian Peters
Enough of the "female-specific" organizations (Score:4)
While I can respect their goals, I do not believe that groups such as LinuxChix are really doing anything useful.
The solution is to make the open-source community accessible to women, rather than making "special" organizations for them. Many things suggested within this article are good ideas, especially fostering an analytical mindset.
The solution is complete integration into the community, not "Linux girls clubs" such as LinuxChix
-V
The difference between the sexes... (Score:3)
These women also tend to pay little attention to what women are 'supposed' to do. They often comes from families where one or more of the parents have a career in the sciences or technology. They probably have little familiar pressure to be 'normal' girls and have the freedom and exposure to explore things that lead to interest in science and technology.
What point am I trying to make? It's exposure to technology at a young age that make the difference. I believe that many of the male geeks first got interested in computers as young boys because of the video games. Girls, howevery, don't usually have this exposure or interest in computers at a young age, for reasons I'm not quite sure of, although several of the female geeks I know do like video games a lot.
I got a bad feeling when I read that article, it just seems like the writer is saying that women and men are very different, where I don't see that much of a difference.
and no, I'm not a boyfriend of any of the members of that student organization of which I have spoken.
Working with Women (Score:3)
When I first started working at a local web development company, I was 1 of 2 men working there. The other five employees were all both middle-aged, female, and lesbians.
And let me tell you, work was interesting.
Though I loathe to say this, the fact of the matter is, women in computing are not going to be automatically good at design, caring for other people, good at handling hardware, or anything else that people may draw as a relationship between woman and computer to mother and child.
So while I don't want to seem anti-woman (I am, after all, looking for a strong, independant, hard-working woman to "adopt" me) I've got to say that in the same sense that Linux does not automatically equal Better, Women does not automatically equal Better.
*puts on his flame resistant suit and waits*
------------
Re:Ironic... (Score:4)
It's just that fewer girls are religions loons (Score:4)
have some beef with RedHat and put a note in the documentation along the lines of "RedHat users will have to fix this themselves because RedHat doesn't know how to set things up properly."
refuse to work on a decent UI because the Emacs interface is all anyone needs.
write APIs that won't support languages other than C++ because anybody who doesn't realize the benefits of OOP has rocks in his head.
write APIs that don't support C++ because Bjarne is a flaming idiot who should be shot on sight.
don't understand that not everyone is a student with massive amounts of free time who'd like nothing better to do than dink around installing crotchety software.
think that providing hundreds of customizable options is much more important than anything else.
think that people will settle for second rate software simply because it runs under Linux rather than using something better for Windows.
Gay male hackers? (Score:4)
I think one reason is very simple- someone who's ended up 'unusual' in one way will be less prone to fall into usual patterns in other ways. In other words, if someone is straight because that's something one doesn't think about, they probably also (at this stage in history) use Windows exclusively on a PC, as that too is something one doesn't think about. (They may well have very strong opinions on trucks or cameras or skis, tho :) )
Frankly, sexual orientation has zilch to do with geekness, except that gay geeks comparatively don't get any either ;) this is more significant of geekness than the actual orientation. It's like priority levels that constantly rate 'debugging this bit of questionable code' over 'going out and flirting or socializing or meeting people'. Naturally, the result is a general lack of sexual fireworks- though not necessarily the _capacity_ for fireworks (remark paid for by the Take-A-Geek-To-Bed Foundation)
As for me? I take pleasure in knowing that, while I am a Linux user and a Mac user and a CLI sympathiser who likes handling linux through xterms and a cordial KDE basher, on slashdot people don't even care or consider my sexual orientation- they are much more interesting in my Mac-ual orientation, or CLI-ual orientation, all the intellectual pursuits that seem much more _important_ than meatspace.
And this is good. It's only when well-meaning people inquire "Are there _any_ gay geeks?" (answer- why no, they're all hairdressers in Greenwich Village! _Everybody_ knows that thilly dahling) that I figure it's worth even mentioning. Oh, and I know of some pretty darn stereotypical (well, more like 'in your face') gay geeks who are also emphatically 'real' geeks. Again, there's no real correlation except for maybe people who are gay are somewhat more likely to also be geeks if they deal with computers. It's not the computers, it's a matter of people conforming to the norm or not. Geekness isn't the norm either.
Sexual Power Differentials Matter (Score:4)
The simple answer to this is that it is those who are less attached to the idea of "having a life" who are prepared to spend weeks at a time glued to their computers.
The larval stage typically hits during youth, and there is a very clear reason why males and females assort at that stage:
Young women are at the peak of their sexual status, and this means "having a life" inflicted upon them by horny men (via every subconscious mechanism imaginable ... and then some). This occurs whether the young women are prepared to spend weeks at a time glued to their computers or not.
Young men, on the other hand, are at the nadir of their sexual status even as they are at the peak of their sexual drive (since the women they typically desire are young and are therefore interested in men with status -- something that frequently comes with age for males), so that means not having a life inflicted upon them -- whether the young men are prepared to spend weeks at a time glued to their computers or not. The fact is that young men are at the peak of their sexual drive at the same time all this is happening. This tends to debilitate the young men even as they enter "larval stage", which is a primary reason cultures have a need for "sexist" adaptations.
Since the youthful "larval stage" is, as the author correctly asserts, critical to becoming an "ubergeek" it should be unsurprising that there are few female ubergeeks. Those few who can make even modest claim to being a geek are frequently paraded around as sex goddesses, such as Kim Polese and Natasha Vita-More even after they hit middle age. This is a good deal for said middle-aged ubergeekettes at the peak of their sex drive since they are surrounded by desperate and incredibly horny young men -- but it is far from clear that this is a good deal for civilization overall.
One ancient adaptation continues to be practiced by many Dravidians even after they migrate to Silicon Valley, and it seems to work fairly well (so long as the couple doesn't become too "Americanized"):
Arranged marriages.
Re:Enough of the "female-specific" organizations (Score:5)
In general, there's a self-perpetuating cycle, in which the activities in which men excel are rewarded more generously by the well-rewarded men who excel at them. It's the tendency that is at the root of the difference in pay for men and in comparable jobs. It is very natural for people to think more highly of the things they are good at than those they are not, and most of the people who control compensation and investment are men.
The "let's be gender-blind" argument is an ingenuous one, I think. It doesn't realize some basic facts:
Oh, please. (by a daemonette) (Score:3)
#1 : You are subjected to only what you allow yourself to be subjected to. Get a backbone.
#2 : I saw fit to "subject" myself? *laugh* No. I actually got to go to Linuxworld, and between the OS-related questions I was answering at the booth, the contacts I was making, and the posing with people with a sense of humor, I had a very productive time. Worth my effort (and sweat, ewww) in spades. What did you spend your week doing?
#3 : You're only not wanted when you enter the door whining. I have had much support from geekers, in costume and out, because I have always approached things with the attitude of a student, and a respectful one at that. Try it sometime. You'd be surprised what good people there really are out in the opensource community, especially.
If you still find this offensive - you're not spending enough time hacking. :)
Save the moderation points for the people with a spine. And something to say. Or do.
Read your own comment. Angsty people like that may be why there aren't more "linuxchix" - unfortunately, the louder ones seem to have the bad attitudes.
http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/lw2000/ Have at it. I'm the one in latex.
And I'm 19. Thank you.
Ceren Ercen
"Strange Attractor
FreeBSD Test Labs"
cerene@uclink4.berkeley.edu
A woman's place... (Score:4)
In front of her computer.
Hacking better NFS support into the next Linux kernel release.
Re:whats the dif ? (Score:4)
"The white man wastes the malloc(). He takes it for his own but does not release it for future generations to use. We of $TRIBE use every part of the stack, and free() it for the future of our children."
Re:It's just that fewer girls are religions loons (Score:3)
<rant>
If people are going to try to do OOP, at least try to do something which vaguely resembles real OOP. Smalltalk. Common Lisp with CLOS. Self. BETA. Objective C. Heck, even Java will do. But C++... yuck. Thus, I hold Bjarne personally guilty for causing enormous grief to entire generations of professional programmers, who are made to suffer in the bowels of statically-typed hell. Bjarne, if you are reading this, know that I own a copy of TECO on tape and am not afraid to use it.
</rant>