Want More Geek Chicks? 334
pb writes "Freshmeat has an excellent editorial about geek chicks. A lot of free software projects these days could really use that woman's touch. "
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Want More Geek Chicks?
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I tell them to turn to the study of mathematics, for it is only there that they might escape the lusts of the flesh. -- Thomas Mann, "The Magic Mountain"
"turning girls into hackers" (Score:1)
-that's primarily a problem that men have..:) women don't need any encouragement in that area.
Re:Pardon my asking, (Score:1)
My gawd!! (Score:4)
It's just like those offensive daemon babes *BSD saw fit to subject us to at LinuxWorld.
We're [female Linux hackers] not here in force because we get the (both implicit and explicit) message that we're not wanted.
No difference (Score:3)
What is this supposed to mean? When I look at open-source projects these days, I don't see a male-oriented slant or perspective on them. I see a computer slant. It's not like GNOME icons feature naked women or anything.
Option 3 in the article I think is the best. Hackerdom doesn't need to be changed to allow more women in as women geeks already seem to fit in quite nicely. It's not as if the community isn't accepting now, and when (not if) more women go into technology fields, I don't see a radical shift in programming or ideology or ideas. Why? Because they're all geeks! Geekiness is gender-neutral, AFAIK. Yes, geeks tend to be male, but they don't have the same issues involving maleness that, say, jocks and Wall Street investors have.
The problem isn't a geek one. The problem is a social one, and as more and more computer filter into daily life, you'll see more women. The only benefit that we're going to get by having more female geeks is the same one that we get by having more geeks in general: more innovating people.
ps. Wasn't this argument already beaten into the ground here on Slashdot about a month ago?
Ironic... (Score:5)
--
Ian Peters
Enough of the "female-specific" organizations (Score:4)
While I can respect their goals, I do not believe that groups such as LinuxChix are really doing anything useful.
The solution is to make the open-source community accessible to women, rather than making "special" organizations for them. Many things suggested within this article are good ideas, especially fostering an analytical mindset.
The solution is complete integration into the community, not "Linux girls clubs" such as LinuxChix
-V
Actually No (Score:1)
The difference between the sexes... (Score:3)
These women also tend to pay little attention to what women are 'supposed' to do. They often comes from families where one or more of the parents have a career in the sciences or technology. They probably have little familiar pressure to be 'normal' girls and have the freedom and exposure to explore things that lead to interest in science and technology.
What point am I trying to make? It's exposure to technology at a young age that make the difference. I believe that many of the male geeks first got interested in computers as young boys because of the video games. Girls, howevery, don't usually have this exposure or interest in computers at a young age, for reasons I'm not quite sure of, although several of the female geeks I know do like video games a lot.
I got a bad feeling when I read that article, it just seems like the writer is saying that women and men are very different, where I don't see that much of a difference.
and no, I'm not a boyfriend of any of the members of that student organization of which I have spoken.
totally true! (& I need a geeky guy!) (Score:1)
The Flood (Score:2)
My computer science class is half female and has been all year, with the girls doing as well as the guys, but it is a first year class. Def Con 7 saw lots of women, and I can tell you that few of them were bored girlfriends.
I keep up on the technology scene more than the world news one, my guy friends enjoy that they can talk to me about what they're interested in and know that I understand. And there are a lot more ladies out there like me. I say, give it a few years, then when we're all trained, there'll be a flood.
Working with Women (Score:3)
When I first started working at a local web development company, I was 1 of 2 men working there. The other five employees were all both middle-aged, female, and lesbians.
And let me tell you, work was interesting.
Though I loathe to say this, the fact of the matter is, women in computing are not going to be automatically good at design, caring for other people, good at handling hardware, or anything else that people may draw as a relationship between woman and computer to mother and child.
So while I don't want to seem anti-woman (I am, after all, looking for a strong, independant, hard-working woman to "adopt" me) I've got to say that in the same sense that Linux does not automatically equal Better, Women does not automatically equal Better.
*puts on his flame resistant suit and waits*
------------
Sheesh...Do Geekchix(tm) need the Community? (Score:1)
First off, you can say that any kind of large project, that's aiming to be a good one, that can go far in the market, will need the greatest diversity of talents and differing styles, working well as a team to a common goal.
You could say that a female mind might bring a slice of that cake to the party, but there's enough diversity in the minds of people working on a project anyway that a female mind might not be the greatest "point of difference" you might think it is.
Without having read the article in-depth, I'd say this is another call for an UI/GFX/semantics person working on some of the open soruce teams, where interface is paramount to it's use, GNOME/KDE to hit the biggies...
Re:Geek Chicks, Dumb Idea (Score:1)
Truth is, I heard a story once about a man who said almost exactly that... and he found a woman exactly like he wanted. And she was happy too.
It's not about what you're supposed to do... if you want to be a geek and a woman... go for it! But there's no shame in being a housewife either. Just depends on what you want to do.
And, I can see this coming a mile away - no, I did not say this to impress anyone. And in fact, whether I did or not is immaterial.
If you can't figure out how to mail me, don't.
Um, yeah... (Score:1)
I for one, would love to see more women in the computer science/hacker/whatever-you-want-to-call it field, and for more reasons than the obvious ones mentioned by the obviously sexually repressed posters.
As hackers (and people with supposedly open minds) I would think we'd welcome the different perspective women bring to things. Call me a dork, but I guess I'd find someone who could argue with me about implementation or point out a flaw in my thinking a lot more stimulating than discussing the latest fashion trends.
The few I know are darn good at the job. (Score:1)
All of these women are the tops in their field, but they are a small segment compared to the overwhelming majority that are men.
I tried to "nuture" my nieces into going into a technical field, but they were captured by the Barbie camp along before I had a chance...
Females will come in time ... (Score:1)
The biggest problem is that females are trained from birth to be conservative and to go for the old and proven in everything while males are taught to be pioneers and to check out new stuff.
This is why there are so few women in tech jobs generally. This isn't specifically related to Computers either. When plains were a new thing, there were precious few lady pilots. Space flight was routine before women went up there. In the old days explorers would either higher every prostitute in town or rape every female in those places with limited "commerce". That happens when you have an all male crew.
These days data processing and other end user type jobs are considered mundane and guess what ? We have women outnumbering men in those positions here ( Jamaica ). However when you get to tech support, network admin, software development and other things that are "pushing the limit" 10 to 1 is extremely optimistic.
I have worked at companies with staff as follows.
Sales: Male 1. Female 5.
Service: Male 6. Female 0.
Accounting: Male 0. Female 1.
Manager: Male 0. Female 1.
Male geek - young, straight, and single (Score:1)
When I saw this, I thought, are there many homosexual male hackers? Has there been any studies or reports on this kind of thing?
I'm asking because I geuinely want to know if geekdom is also a primarily a heterosexual male domain.
I think that when most people think of geeks, they think of socially-challenged but heterosexual males who are always lusting after girls but could never get them (or is that nerds?). I think that many or most of the computer games out there precisely target the geek population (young straight and single) because they are more willing to sit in front of computers for hours on end, obsessed with getting further or higher scores - an activity akin to hacking, I would say.
Also, do stereotypical homosexual male traits preclude them from being geeks?
Uhm... (Score:1)
Geekguys dont want geekgirls. Geekguys want Britney Spears. Atleast almost every geekguy I know.
Am i ugly or what?
-----------------------------------------------
Re:Enough of the "female-specific" organizations (Score:1)
I think you are absolutely right in that they should just become part of mainstream.
But in order for them to be integrated, they will need the support of a community - a little more help to get them going, a little more affirmation that what they are trying to do is right.
Re:Ironic... (Score:4)
Females will come in time ... (Score:1)
The biggest problem is that females are trained from birth to be conservative and to go for the old and proven in everything while males are taught to be pioneers and to check out new stuff.
This is why there are so few women in tech jobs generally. This isn't specifically related to Computers either. When plains were a new thing, there were precious few lady pilots. Space flight was routine before women went up there. In the old days explorers would either higher every prostitute in town or rape every female in those places with limited "commerce". That happens when you have an all male crew.
These days data processing and other end user type jobs are considered mundane and guess what ? We have women outnumbering men in those positions here ( Jamaica ). However when you get to tech support, network admin, software development and other things that are "pushing the limit" 10 to 1 is extremely optimistic.
I have worked at companies with staff as follows.
Sales: Male 1. Female 5.
Service: Male 6. Female 0.
Accounting: Male 0. Female 1.
Manager: Male 0. Female 1.
josie true (Score:1)
check out what these guys are doing... a bunch of college students are trying to put together a big game for girls ages 9-11, with the hopes that it will get them involved with math and science at an early age
they're not professional game designers, just a bunch of kids that want to make a difference
www.josietrue.com
Re:I don't know... (Score:2)
Re:No difference (Score:1)
Whaou, THAT is a good idea! No, just kiding ;) Now I will be marked as a Macho geek (which I may well be :(). Anyway, what is great about the web is that you can't really know what gender/race/religion/... the person you're talking to really is, after all, what prove your a girl? (I don't doubt it, I just makes a point), which make people (well, me at least) act consequently, they don't change their reactions because you are a girl or because you have a black face. Otherwise I found it to be a good article but I do remember reading an article that looked a lot like this one (maybe the same author?).
Re:No difference (Score:1)
Of course, that's just the screenshot, not the software itself.
Re:My gawd!! (Score:1)
Actually I'd not just accuse guys but also other "chics" including so-called "geek chics". I consider myself a computer chic (I don't use the term geek but according to the geek definitions I'm pretty definately in that category :) and I've faced probably as much crap (if not more) from geek chics than the guys. There's also quite a bit of stuff in the article I'd disagree with. To be honest I consider a lot of the "hassles" to be caused by all the labelling and BS - the promotion of whole articles on this and the types of discussion is a pretty good indicator of how far some of this stuff needs to come.
Just a couple of points:
The correlation between technical proficiency and social ineptitude is not that those with poor social skills turn to computers; rather, that those with good social skills will have less opportunity to advance their technical ones.
Actually maybe a portion of the reduced social skills comes from our lifestyles? The old "If you don't use it you lose it". Some of us never particularly learned social skills and, in my case, I had pretty good social skills before I "discovered" computers - since then my "expertise" with them has increased and my social skills have gone to crap :)
A lot of the points regarding relative importance and cultural values are valid but they are simply a reflection of these and not specific to "geekdom". The "geekdom" fields are simply another (of many) male-dominated fields traditionally. One of the things I've found interesting is that over the years I've actually found more negative judgements coming to me as a geek chic than earlier - I guess I tend to view that as more the effect of the geek wanna-be's trying to "prove/establish their geekdom" by their idea of competing whereas most people I've met who I'd consider "real (or perhaps the ultimate :) geeks" haven't given a shit about all the meaningly crap (including sex) and have been simply interested in geek material/subjects/knowledge. They certainly weren't into the increasing trend of "geekdom naval-gazing" :/
I didn't intend this to be a flame of the article - Skud pointed out that this is an opinion piece based on discussions, etc... just in my experience I've had most encouragement from guy geeks and plenty of crap from "geek chics" (I hate that term 'cause its the self proclaimed "geek chics" that have given me the most crap. I don't really care what label/attributes someone has, I just prefer people with a clue.
Annon Coward 'cause I cant be stuff logging inRe:My gawd!! (Score:1)
A Geek Guy
It's just that fewer girls are religions loons (Score:4)
have some beef with RedHat and put a note in the documentation along the lines of "RedHat users will have to fix this themselves because RedHat doesn't know how to set things up properly."
refuse to work on a decent UI because the Emacs interface is all anyone needs.
write APIs that won't support languages other than C++ because anybody who doesn't realize the benefits of OOP has rocks in his head.
write APIs that don't support C++ because Bjarne is a flaming idiot who should be shot on sight.
don't understand that not everyone is a student with massive amounts of free time who'd like nothing better to do than dink around installing crotchety software.
think that providing hundreds of customizable options is much more important than anything else.
think that people will settle for second rate software simply because it runs under Linux rather than using something better for Windows.
Re:My gawd!! (Score:1)
Re:Not only open source projects! (Score:1)
Fashion? Blegh! (Score:1)
I am still trying to figure out whether I am an anomoly being a (happy) female computer geek or if I've just been lucky enough to manage to escape or overcome some of the societal pressures that apparently discourage females from going into some of the engineering/technical fields. My parents were cool and encouraged me to play with science-related toys, and nobody seemed too surprised when I started programming in BASIC on our Commodore 64, so I guess the stage was set before I hit those nasty peer-pressure years!
At any rate, so long as my coworkers treat me like a human being, and accept that I can do my job, I'll be happy (even if I am the only female programmer). Maybe I am lucky, but so far people have overtly appreciated my programming skills and my interpersonal skills (which may be slightly better than those of the other programmers).
Anyhow, any additional skills a programmer brings to the table can be considered assets, so I guess we should encourage women to value their other skills. But we should encourage men to do that, too. When I think about women-in-IT, I am much more interested in encouraging younger (pre-teen?) girls to explore science and technology despite the somewhat negative perceptions about the 'geekiness' of it all.
YS
Re:Ironic... (Score:1)
Re:I don't know... (Score:1)
Re:No difference (Score:1)
What is this supposed to mean?
Maybe it's just me, but I thought thought that was supposed to be a bit of a joke.
I don't do sigs.
SWIFT (Score:1)
If you're interested, here's their site:
YS
Re:Uhm... (Score:1)
Well, se for yourself... (Score:2)
Yuck...
Old Boy Network (Score:2)
Much of what the author says is true, but little will probably change until all "old boy networks" open up.
All in all this has more to do with our culture than hackerdom, specifically.
Re:Enough of the "female-specific" organizations (Score:2)
The point of LinuxChix is not that it is a "linux girls club"(there are plenty of men on the lists as well), the point is that it is a place women can go and be *comfortable* with being a female hacker/geek/whatever.
You can't get *anywhere* without self-confidence, and that is what the point of these "clubs" is: to help women feel more comfortable with who they are.
Eventually, yes, "complete integration" would be nice, but if at every corner of "complete integration" city you see a jerk telling you "women can't be in engineering!" or "women will only make good project leaders" or "women only think they can code" or "are you just here with HIM or do you know *anything* about linux?", would you really want to go outside?
I don't think so. Read the archives. Join the list. Get a real perspective before you tell us all how it is.
There is no simple solution. Making the open source community "accessible to women" isn't as easy as you seem to think it is.
-nicole
Re:Male geek - young, straight, and single (Score:1)
Geekgirls in my shop. (Score:1)
We have 5 techs 2 of which are women (one hardware one network). Our admin staff has one woman working on her CS degree and another in pre-larval stage IMHO working on getting A+ certified. We have a sales rep that used to be a programmer. That's quite a few woman techhies for a shop our size.
Re:Geek Chicks, Dumb Idea (Score:2)
I think the original point was, however, that women in general should stop going to work and just stay home, spending her "man's" money and raising children.
-nicole
Re:Geek Chicks, Dumb Idea (Score:1)
Good Article / My 2 cents (Score:1)
Very interesting read indeed. However, I feel I must play the devil's advocate (don't shoot me!) and point
out a few things that aren't necessarily wrong, but I think should be clarified/explored.
1. One possibility that is mentioned is to change the way we raise our children, essentially, and help girls
cast free some of the bonds of traditional social behavior. I believe *everyone* could use a little help with
this, though I also agree the girls are undoubtedly constrained more by traditional views than boys. A little
later on, however, Skud mentions that one of the reasons it would be desirable to have more "geek chicks" is
that "they would bring a different perspective and generate new ideas." If, in the Nature vs. Nurture
argument, you believe in 100% nurture, 0% nature, than how much different will the perspective of "geek
chicks" be if they are brought up more like their mail brethen? Naturally, there would be a difference, and I
think most people who have given it some thought will agree that it is definitely neither all Nature or all
Nurture, but somewhere in between though we may vary on just where we stand in the middle.
Whoops, I got a little off of the train of thought I started on, but it does help set up the next point.
2. If there is a fundamental difference, even slight, in the way we think, and more importantly, our
motivations, than isn't it to be expected that our interest in certain fields may be different? If we redefine
our definition of "hacking" to include more women, just what have we accomplished? Nothing. It's nothing
more than politically-correct jerrymandering. What we need to do, instead, is recognize where different
people stand, both men and women, and give credit where credit is due. Yes, perhaps more "male" interests
are predominant in "hard hacking" type communities, where each line of assembly code in that core library is
a work of art, in it's own twisted way. I am not entirely convinced that this is the case, but if it is, is there
anything wrong with that?
I think I had a third point, but I've forgotten it now. I was also gonna write a sappy conclusion, but I thought
it was a little too thick about halfway through writing it, so I deleted it.
If you have any comments, please feel free to email me! I'd love to hear 'em. I actually think this is a pretty
interesting topic... (and I've had an in-depth discussion or two w/ my girlfriend about it... so yes, i'm a dude)
Cheers.
whats the dif ? (Score:1)
this isnt a troll or flamebait, im being serious here.
i think we should worry about being accepted before we worry about accepting specific groups of people. besides, i have yet to see an article on how current opensource projects could use a native americans touch.
just my $2.00
Re:Enough of the "female-specific" organizations (Score:1)
"A womans touch" (Score:2)
Geez. Could you be a little more patronising please?
We're just geeks too, trying to do what we're good at. We don't wanna be tokenised to "add a womans touch" to a project. We want to be involved to show off our skills, and get kudos for being -good-, not for being chicks.
Skud's great. Another Aussie Chick.
Gay male hackers? (Score:4)
I think one reason is very simple- someone who's ended up 'unusual' in one way will be less prone to fall into usual patterns in other ways. In other words, if someone is straight because that's something one doesn't think about, they probably also (at this stage in history) use Windows exclusively on a PC, as that too is something one doesn't think about. (They may well have very strong opinions on trucks or cameras or skis, tho :) )
Frankly, sexual orientation has zilch to do with geekness, except that gay geeks comparatively don't get any either ;) this is more significant of geekness than the actual orientation. It's like priority levels that constantly rate 'debugging this bit of questionable code' over 'going out and flirting or socializing or meeting people'. Naturally, the result is a general lack of sexual fireworks- though not necessarily the _capacity_ for fireworks (remark paid for by the Take-A-Geek-To-Bed Foundation)
As for me? I take pleasure in knowing that, while I am a Linux user and a Mac user and a CLI sympathiser who likes handling linux through xterms and a cordial KDE basher, on slashdot people don't even care or consider my sexual orientation- they are much more interesting in my Mac-ual orientation, or CLI-ual orientation, all the intellectual pursuits that seem much more _important_ than meatspace.
And this is good. It's only when well-meaning people inquire "Are there _any_ gay geeks?" (answer- why no, they're all hairdressers in Greenwich Village! _Everybody_ knows that thilly dahling) that I figure it's worth even mentioning. Oh, and I know of some pretty darn stereotypical (well, more like 'in your face') gay geeks who are also emphatically 'real' geeks. Again, there's no real correlation except for maybe people who are gay are somewhat more likely to also be geeks if they deal with computers. It's not the computers, it's a matter of people conforming to the norm or not. Geekness isn't the norm either.
Hey everyone! Let's see who can be more sexist! (Score:1)
You are exactly the type of guy we broke from during the '70s. "Oh, chicks should be in the home, blah blah blah." Bullshit. You're the reason why there aren't more "geek chicks," because you're stuck in that mindset.
"Woman of the millenium" my ass. The woman of the millenium is whatever she wants to be, because now that the 1950s are over she CAN be whatever she wants to be, and step on guys like you to get there.
Get over yourself. We won. Things are different now, old man.
miyax
Geeks with big heads... (Score:1)
Take, for example: The correlation between technical proficiency and social ineptitude is not that those with poor social skills turn to computers; rather, that those with good social skills will have less opportunity to advance their technical ones.
To call this bullshit is being kind. Good social skills kept me from being a great programmer! Please. This is simply geeks trying to place the skills they are proficient in above others. Artificial ego-inflation could definitly be considered a turn-off for females...
It can easily be said that it takes just as much concentration, intelligence, and thought to be an architect, author, or doctor as it does to be a programmer, yet you never hear people complaining about those people's social skills as a group. The "monomaniacal concentration" required is obviously not the problem. Perhaps the doses of machismo among "geek" interactions is...
Re:Enough of the "female-specific" organizations (Score:1)
Way to go, I've been thinking the same thing all along ^_^
It reminds me of, "well, are we geeks or nerds?" Why be a clique, let's all just jump in the party and make the most of it.
miyax
Rhetorical questions and the dead fetus (Score:2)
Approprate, huh, yes. When I forget what a chunk of code or command line option does, I can guess it in quite a few attempts.
Of course. I even used getopt_long(3) to manage long options, so clueless users can use a highly intuitive, self-explanatory interface!
Of course it does. Dominik Mierzejewski built the RPM packages, and he's not Chinese!
Except for the fact that all of them ask for an XMMS plugin (including here in
Sure. And what is not there is mentioned in the package docs somewhere, or if it does not correspond to the actual implementation the implementation has the authoritative information, so it's all there, just check the implementation following the steps of question 1.
If the answer to any of these questions is "no", your software is falling short of its potential. If you've ever said that you wish there were more female geeks in the Open Source community, now may be your opportunity to welcome them into your team, not as mascots or hangers-on, but as an indispensable part of the project.
Of course the answer of all questions is "yes", but if you're a female geek and want to improve my project by adding BP Soundmon, TFMX and VectorDean support, integrating an m68k emulator to allow Deli compatibility, you're very very welcome!
Oh, ok. Maybe the project [helllabs.org] isn't as messy as I described... But I can't see why a female geek could make it less messy. I see female geeks as equals, i.e. as organized or disorganized as any male geek, no worse, no better as software developer. No need for Conjoined Twin Myslexia Day or whatever. Miod Vallat's MikMod [darkorb.net], the competitor, has much better documentation -- and the last time I checked there was no girls in MikMod's credits.
And yes, I will write the damn XMMS plugin! :)
Not more women, More variety. (Score:1)
The problem is a general lack of variety. The computer industry, right now, is dominated almost entirely by white men, and mainly those with a background in computers. Because computers are such a large part of many of our lives, we cannot afford to have them controlled by such a small group. Computer companies need to hire people of both sexes, of all ethnic backgrounds. They need to hire artists, writers, and other such people.
The poor, the minorities, and the women of our society are missing out on the revolution caused by computers. This might be attributed to income or education, but I think that part of the problem is the failure to include these groups in the development of computers.
As evidence of the idea that people want a computer that they feel more comfortable with, I point to the iMac. Like the computer or not, is is much more comforable of an object, and very different from the beige boxes most companies sell.
Companies need to get a broader view, try new things, include more people. Perhaps then we will get computers that are more than just tools. Perhaps then the revolution will finally come.
Real obvious. (Score:1)
More coders, more minds, better software.
Re:"A womans touch" (Score:2)
Amen.
Why the fuck are women always portrayed with that 'soft' aspect. Their 'frilly' skills and talents as a compliment to what we macho ass kicking guys do, becuase they cant do what we do, they do something that 'compliments' our work. Sure, the super model babes that you all lust after may be your precious may flower, but they are a severe minority. And certianly not the measure to which all women are met. (i would hope not, god that would be sad)
I dont know about you, but that is fucking bullshit. What we need are ass kicking femmes who dont put up with or accept this bullshit that is continually forced down their throats. Those who know they have skills, and enjoy contributing simply because they provide valuable additions to the projects they are involved in. They could be talking cactuses for all I care, I would still be impressed by their work.
'Oh whatEVER!' i hear some of you guys say.. 'That is soo bullshit yourself! That shit doesnt happen, this is the AGE of EQUALITY!'
Well, BE A WOMEN for a few days. Im sorry, but if you look objectively at many aspects of society, in the workplace, social scenes, etc. you will see it.
Perhaps the human race will always have the dichotomies, racism, sexism, and all the other prejudices and biased perspectives. I hope not.
One thing is certain. We have not, and continue to not do enough to end this shit. And it is fucking shit. Period.
do the math... (Score:2)
something must be stopping them.
what is it?
and on that topic, what makes free software as good as it is? more eyes == shallow bugs. more minds == better ideas.
rms hacked a great editor, and a great bit of copyright law. linus hacked a great os. so did theo de raadt. robert young did a pretty good company hack - the first ipo with the gpl in it is pretty good.
so i wonder... who's going to hack the community and open up the "open" community?
Hey everyone! Let's see who can read! (Score:1)
Read the story.
Re:Ironic... (Score:2)
Ok!!! YOU WIN!!!
Sexual Power Differentials Matter (Score:4)
The simple answer to this is that it is those who are less attached to the idea of "having a life" who are prepared to spend weeks at a time glued to their computers.
The larval stage typically hits during youth, and there is a very clear reason why males and females assort at that stage:
Young women are at the peak of their sexual status, and this means "having a life" inflicted upon them by horny men (via every subconscious mechanism imaginable ... and then some). This occurs whether the young women are prepared to spend weeks at a time glued to their computers or not.
Young men, on the other hand, are at the nadir of their sexual status even as they are at the peak of their sexual drive (since the women they typically desire are young and are therefore interested in men with status -- something that frequently comes with age for males), so that means not having a life inflicted upon them -- whether the young men are prepared to spend weeks at a time glued to their computers or not. The fact is that young men are at the peak of their sexual drive at the same time all this is happening. This tends to debilitate the young men even as they enter "larval stage", which is a primary reason cultures have a need for "sexist" adaptations.
Since the youthful "larval stage" is, as the author correctly asserts, critical to becoming an "ubergeek" it should be unsurprising that there are few female ubergeeks. Those few who can make even modest claim to being a geek are frequently paraded around as sex goddesses, such as Kim Polese and Natasha Vita-More even after they hit middle age. This is a good deal for said middle-aged ubergeekettes at the peak of their sex drive since they are surrounded by desperate and incredibly horny young men -- but it is far from clear that this is a good deal for civilization overall.
One ancient adaptation continues to be practiced by many Dravidians even after they migrate to Silicon Valley, and it seems to work fairly well (so long as the couple doesn't become too "Americanized"):
Arranged marriages.
Most women have lives. (Score:1)
Rather than spending their spare time hacking, they do sensible, worthwhile things, like learning foreign languages, helping organisations that work with disadvantaged and disabled young people and so on.
Most of the male geeks spend their spare time either hacking or drinking large amounts of beer and wondering why we don't have girlfriends.
I think the article makes it clear why there aren't more female hackers. Being a hacker requires a lot if time and commitment. Many women would rather spend their free time doing things that require human interaction, instead of behaving that like a bunch of sad losers who spend far to much time playing with computers(myself included).
Incidentally, my experience of working with female techies is that they are generally considerably more productive than males.
These comments do not necessarily represent the views of the author
Re:Male geek - young, straight, and single (Score:1)
When I saw this, I thought, are there many homosexual male hackers? Has there been any studies or reports on this kind of thing? I'm asking because I geuinely want to know if geekdom is also a primarily a heterosexual male domain.
I would think that geekdom, which has been traditionally been mostly unconcerned with age/race/gender/religion/appearance/whatever in favor of quality of idea/code/implementation/whatever, wouldn't have much of a problem with sexual orientation, either.
But then again, I have seen *quite* a number of overtly homophobic comments on /. and elsewhere. Could it be that sexual orientation is the one area where geeks *don't* bring the same amount of automatic tolerance to the table? And if so, why? Surely no one would argue that choice of sleeping partner would impact upon ability to churn out code or skill at implementing a new hack.
Also, do stereotypical homosexual male traits preclude them from being geeks?
What "traits" would those be? If you mean, "does the (surprising?) level of homophobia in a supposedly ultra-tolerant cultural group like geeks adversely impact gay geeks?", then I'd have to say that yes, it probably does. If you mean "is there something inherent in queer people that would prevent them from becoming geeks?", then I'd have to say no. Besides, if the stereotype of gay guys being limp-wristed were true, you'd think that would be an *advantage* in playing Quake... :-)
And as to the question of "well, if there *are* gay geeks out there, then where are they?", I should point out that several of the main Linux kernel hackers are queer, as is the author of this reply, as are many geeks I know. In fact, I would posit that a larger percentage of queer people are geeks than the members of the general population as a whole are geeks. However, if a large percent of queers = geeks, large percent of geeks != queers.
If you're looking for a more precise percentage count, take a look at "Peer2Peer" over at UserFriendly (http://personals.ufies.org/ [ufies.org]) and check out the number of gay/bi/lesbian/queer/transgendered personals over there. Or notice how almost all large techie companies have a gay employees group? Even good old Microsoft has GLEAM.
Ergo, gay geeks exist. The question now is, when do we see a Jon Katz article on this? :-)
Re:Fashion? Blegh! (Score:1)
I think there's a lot to be said for playing around with technology at a young age as a formative stage in the life of a geek, male or female.
Of course, it's good to train them at a young age, because everyone knows that geeks have cooties...
What did you think about the implication that women who program aren't as much an active part of the community, but rather tend to use their skills to get their work done?
I guess that's what interests me, since I haven't seen as many women who code just for the sake of coding, but I'm sure they're out there! (my girlfriend has been meaning to write a funny text adventure for a while, even if that isn't necessarily her field of choice...)
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
Re:My gawd!! (Score:2)
I've also never gotten the impression that I'm not wanted from a hacker. I have gotten it, however, from those same teachers who say "girls can't code" or "it's simply a fact that women aren't good at math. don't feel bad, it's a fact of life" or simply express their disapproval of me through grades that do not express the quality of my work, but rather the shape of my chromosones. I've met some real sexist bastards out there, at work, at conferences, in school, and in Real Life, but I've learned to ignore/avoid them, and concentrate on something else.
Not everyone can.
and that is the real pity -- I know girls who really had the hacker mentality, but either because they were simply not able to ignore those who don't (or shouldn't) matter, or becasue the disapproval came from people who should have known better, they went into other areas.
encouraging girls who aren't "the hacker type" won't do any good -- I have seen some of them in my CS classes, and they're struggling (along with the guys there simply becasue they heard CS majors all make a zillion dollars) becasue they simple don't get it. I suppose we will have to wait for the idiots to die off.
Lea
(OTOH, one larval hacker I knew gave me the highest compliment he could think of -- that I was "such a guy". gee. thanks.)
D'OH! (Score:1)
The way it came up it looked like the post I replied to was in reply to the story. I then changed mode and I see that it wasn't. OOps.
My appologies.
You were quite right, the guy is fairly moronic.
Re:The few I know are darn good at the job. (Score:2)
of course there are always a few exceptions, perhaps even including myself, but most of the women engineers I've known have been more than competent, becasue if they weren't, they would have gotten fed up years ago. (the best defense against sexist bastards is being good -- they have less to complain about)
Lea
If you want... (Score:2)
Yeah... I can see it now... you take my advice only to start posting about "Geek Chicks naked and petrified" -- lovely. 8(
Re:Not more women, More variety. (Score:1)
Re:Enough of the "female-specific" organizations (Score:5)
In general, there's a self-perpetuating cycle, in which the activities in which men excel are rewarded more generously by the well-rewarded men who excel at them. It's the tendency that is at the root of the difference in pay for men and in comparable jobs. It is very natural for people to think more highly of the things they are good at than those they are not, and most of the people who control compensation and investment are men.
The "let's be gender-blind" argument is an ingenuous one, I think. It doesn't realize some basic facts:
Oh no, not again. (Score:1)
I agree with Scud's observation that every time there's a cry of 'where all the women at?' there's a pretty good turnout of females yelling 'We're here!'. Perhaps we're ignoring the women in our midst?
I don't agree with the idea that women are 'differently abled' than men. I do believe that contributions made by women are typically not valued as highly as those made by men. Female dominated professions such as nursing or teaching are not as prestigious or high paying as male dominated professions such as hacking. Men are typically paid more than women even in the same careers.
Wow. Maybe being ignored and undercompensated is driving women away?
Maybe an answer to the problem is to notice and value the women who are already part of the hacker community?
I'd say 'hug a female geek today' but the ones I know would kick my ass. :)
You mean... (Score:2)
Well, they could start by getting out more often.
Working with Lesbians =! Working with Women (Score:2)
You see, the most fundamental differences between men and women are related to sexuality. That and socialization. However a gay person wasn't socialized the same way as a straight person and dose not have the same sexuality.
In other words, I can pretty much guarantee that your experiences working with straight women would have been significantly different. Young women ( who are more common, especially in tech jobs ) would also add significant alterations to your experiences.
So just because they are different why dose that make it a bad idea ? Simple, gays are a minority and as such cannot be used to judge the whole of society.
Men can do everything women can do... (Score:2)
So where does this fit in with geekdom? In short, the author seems to argue that women can do everything that men can, but they also can do other things which aren't getting done. Now I'm not supposing something simmilar to the second shift, where traditional roles have kept women doing the housework. There really aren't defined gender roles which are specific to hacking (as near as I can tell.) But this article proposes defining such gender roles, and I'm a little uncomfertable with just letting a whole set of things be swept into the "Women's work" catagory, along with everything already being done by men. Like Steinem says, the challange is convincing men that those jobs are crucial, and that they can do them as well.
Re:The Flood (Score:2)
I go to UC Berkeley. the percentage of female EECS majors starts out at 17%. then it drops, which means that
a. women drop out at a proportionally higher rate than men
b. my classes are at least 80% guys
c. not to mention the EECS honor society
now, this seems to be pretty average -- CMU averages less, MIT more, but most programs seem to have these sorts of numbers, except for (of course) Wellesley College
personally, most of my friends have been guys for a long time, so I'm used to it, though some girls aren't. however, this does make it VERY inconvenient when looking for a roomate. (psst -- Berkeley girls, I'm going to have a nice apartment next semester on Northside, and I'm looking for a roomate. very good rent, considering it's berkeley)
Lea
Oh, please. (by a daemonette) (Score:3)
#1 : You are subjected to only what you allow yourself to be subjected to. Get a backbone.
#2 : I saw fit to "subject" myself? *laugh* No. I actually got to go to Linuxworld, and between the OS-related questions I was answering at the booth, the contacts I was making, and the posing with people with a sense of humor, I had a very productive time. Worth my effort (and sweat, ewww) in spades. What did you spend your week doing?
#3 : You're only not wanted when you enter the door whining. I have had much support from geekers, in costume and out, because I have always approached things with the attitude of a student, and a respectful one at that. Try it sometime. You'd be surprised what good people there really are out in the opensource community, especially.
If you still find this offensive - you're not spending enough time hacking. :)
Save the moderation points for the people with a spine. And something to say. Or do.
Read your own comment. Angsty people like that may be why there aren't more "linuxchix" - unfortunately, the louder ones seem to have the bad attitudes.
http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/lw2000/ Have at it. I'm the one in latex.
And I'm 19. Thank you.
Ceren Ercen
"Strange Attractor
FreeBSD Test Labs"
cerene@uclink4.berkeley.edu
Daemonette, Raiderette, whats the diff? (Score:2)
Very few humans in this planet have been able to 'wish themselves' a new backbone, or anything else for that matter, and most who have it (or anything else in this world) did't get it _purely_ due to their own 'efforts'. I *doubt* you're responsible for your own backbone.
That's not to say that no-one is in control of their own lives, that it's not worth it to overcome what is, but to say that everyone is in *complete* control of their world or destiny is to ignore the fact that you live in a world created by those around you, and limited by what has been burned into your own soul during the first 20 years of your life.
Congrats on having the inner strength and confidence that you do have. My sympathies for your lack of depth elsewhere.
A woman's place... (Score:4)
In front of her computer.
Hacking better NFS support into the next Linux kernel release.
Re:No difference (Score:2)
Secondly, I don't beleave that the problem that has caused so many girls not to become hackers is that the male hackers are offencive to them. I think it's the rest of the society. A boy is more allowed to sit down and hack, beacuse his father probably built crystal recievers (Is that the english word for those very simple radio recievers?) at the same age, and will think it's just the same thing (Which is partly is, but not fully, hacking is so much more than just building something cool for yourself to use), while I girl will be regarded as strange if she turns away from the rest of the youngsters and hacks, while her mother (and others) will not have any similar activity performed by themselves as young, to recognize it as.
I beleave the best we can do to help anyone to become a hacker, male of female, is to tell his/her parents/friends/whoever that this is important and good for the boy/girl, and especially, explain that it is not "antisocial beheaviour" (A trend word that has a strong negative connotation), and why it is not (reffer to
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
Re:whats the dif ? (Score:4)
"The white man wastes the malloc(). He takes it for his own but does not release it for future generations to use. We of $TRIBE use every part of the stack, and free() it for the future of our children."
Re:It's just that fewer girls are religions loons (Score:3)
<rant>
If people are going to try to do OOP, at least try to do something which vaguely resembles real OOP. Smalltalk. Common Lisp with CLOS. Self. BETA. Objective C. Heck, even Java will do. But C++... yuck. Thus, I hold Bjarne personally guilty for causing enormous grief to entire generations of professional programmers, who are made to suffer in the bowels of statically-typed hell. Bjarne, if you are reading this, know that I own a copy of TECO on tape and am not afraid to use it.
</rant>
Re:Oh, please. (by a daemonette) (Score:2)
Re:It's just that fewer girls are religions loons (Score:2)
That would be from the Hacker's Manifesto, by The Mentor.
"This is our world now, the world of the electron and the switch... the beauty of the baud..."
Re:"A womans touch" (Score:2)
Heck, I thought it was pretty funny.
You don't want to be tokenised? There goes my woman compiler front-end, too. Darn.
Don't forget to turn down any of those annoying "women in engineering" scholarships, they only give you money because they want more chicks in their field--they must be competing for humanities in demographics.
And it's interesting that you're flaming me instead of Skud, since I basically just summed up the last half of her article in that one offensive line, for you. (I figured we'd have some interesting discussion on that, and I've seen a good comment or two about it)
Remember, one person's offensive stereotype is another person's rule of thumb. People use heuristics and special cases because they're faster than creating separate categories for everything.
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
Preach it (Score:2)
Opening up our definition of hackerdom to include such traditionally female concepts as user interface and psychology, written and verbal communications, group interactions (both electronic and face to face), et cetera, may be a valid alternative to requiring women to fit the existing hacker mold.
This is *so* true. What do many "wizard" hackers sacrifice to gain that arcane ability? Socialization. Linux advocacy requires positive social interaction with the public.
I don't think of myself as having particularly delicate sensibilities, nor do I shrink from heated discussions when they're necessary, but for me, arguments about the deep technical language of the Perl interpreter have no value to me. This is quite likely true of many other female Perl programmers, and yet another indication that women are more interested in applying technologies to real life situations than to obsessing about the implementation details of those technologies.
I definitely agree. Female perspective may help steer and focus the more obsessive male's efforts to make a product which will be functional *and* useful.
To the men in Open Source, I say: take a look at your work, at your projects. Are your projects well managed and well documented in appropriate formats? Have you given attention to the user interface? Does your software have the polish that's needed to gain acceptance outside the hacker community? Are your users being looked after and feeling as if they're a necessary and appreciated part of the Open Source development process?
Are you project managers listening?
Re:It's just that fewer girls are religions loons (Score:2)
I hope that we can draw a general consensus in this forum that being technically-minded is a Good ThingTM. Therefore the question should be whether we think producing geeks of any gender is appropriate, or desireable and I scream from the rooftops *YES*. (The neighbors hate when I do that :) I think Skud's perspective on raising children is very intelligent and will help prepare our young for the technologically demanding future we inevitably face.
It is only correct to challenge children and we are responsible for providing the resources upon which they draw to grow. Or as Skud says, "Teach them to RTFM, and provide them with a good reference library."
Re:But moving girls to tech in HS is too late. (Score:2)
That's not necessarily true.
Until age 12, I lived in a country where nobody I knew had a computer, so I was not exposed to computers as a "thing to do" until high school. Until then, I was not sure about what to do with my life.. I really liked math, but I had no idea how to make a career out of that, so I thought, maybe psychology or something? That's the kind of thing that my girlfriends were talking about doing.
Then, in Grade 10, I randomly decided to take an introductory computer course instead of Spanish. It was ho-hum until we got to the programming component of the course. The whole concept was new to me, but I instantly fell in love.
In the meanwhile, I also met some (male) friends who introduced me to the world of IRC, the Internet and programming. By the time I was in grade 12, I was the only girl in a programming class. I was never discouraged from taking programming because I was a girl, but I felt like an oddity. The guys were rather cliquish, and would show off their "skillz" in front of each other.. but neither they, nor the teacher, ever really acknowledged me as one of them because I didn't like playing Doom, or participate in their discussions about sports and the joys of flatulation. It didn't matter that I blew all of them away at programming and was as much of a techie geek as the rest of them!
I'm not easily discouraged, or I wouldn't be in the midst of getting a degree in math and computer science at a prestigious Canadian university.
... and btw, a girl won't think you any less of a man if you admit that she is possibly better at computers than you are...
Re:Very cool..NOT (Score:2)
Re:My gawd!! (Score:2)
I work in a "famous" R&D lab
Then you should be enough of a scientist to realize that you can't make absurd generalizations and logical fallacies like this.
Your logic goes like this:
1. Women dropped out of your college math classes
2. There are few women in your R&D lab
Therefore,
3. Women are bad at math
That's just as invalid as saying:
1. Women dropped out of your college math classes
2. There are few women in your R&D lab
Therefore,
3. Women hate you.
... (Score:2)
All that aside.
Why AREN'T there more female geeks? Lots of factors go into this...
The nature vs. nurture debate is a big one. If it weren't for a good deal of nurture, right now I wouldn't be sitting in my room chugging Diet Coke and hammering out a response on Slashdot on an IBM Modem M keyboard attached to a home-brewed K6-2/400 Linux box sitting beside a blueberry iMac DV beside a headless Performa 6115 underneath a 486 wedged in an XT case.
*deep breath*
Had my parents not encouraged me to use our PC Jr back in the mid-eighties, I would never have gotten such a tooth for technology. My brother contributed largely to this mindset--I shunned dolls, rather wanting to build fantastical Lego structures with my brother, or playing with Hot Wheels.
My mother encouraged me to draw, to read. She let me use her fine art-grade paper and pastels even when I was in 1st or 2nd grade. She let me read medical books even before I was in school.
I was pretty isolated, too. My only peer influence was my cousin, who I saw a few times a month. She was into dolls, fashion, boys. I didn't care.
Availability of technology itself is not the determining factor. Sure, a kid who's surrounded by computers as s/he's growing has an advantage over a 21-year-old who suddenly lands an IT job on 6 months of using a Macintosh...but after the PC Jr. died, we didn't get another computer until I was 12. And look at me now. I'm a geek. I think.
How about nature? Let's take a look at this. Men mainly make up the field of computing, but women can be just as competent. Why? Are few women left-brained enough to have interest in the logic and scientific aspects of computing? I dunno. I hated all my algebra courses in school, but excelled in science, social studies, and language courses.
Girls DO tend to take an interest in more social, linguistic, and aesthetic aspects at an early age than boys do. It's true, I've seen it. I was a tomboy, but it was just *fun* to play house, write fantasy stories about animals and dinosaurs, sew clothes for Barbie (well, the ones I didn't blow up, anyway) and conduct weddings consisting of stuffed animals.
Perhaps when logical and scientific aspects are presented, and a girl at a young age finds it *fun*, she latches onto it. I think that's how it was for me.
What else? The right information at the right time. I was an okay computer user 2 years ago (knew how to run Windows without stumbling around) but didn't really know much. By doing a half-kludged project on computer animation (instead of the weird blacklight-bacteria growth thing I was gonna try)at a local science fair, I made a few friends with Internet access and they got me into "hacking". A few of them downloaded the Windows cracks and such; I started reading the hacking FAQs, and was soon fascinated with how packets and ports and binary worked. Needless to say, I began reading a lot more and decided to forget about downloading winnukers and such when I found this thing called "Slashdot".
Lots of factors go into producing female geeks. I agree with the article--I think the best one can do is let young girls find math and science *FUN*. Fashion magazines suck. Let the girl figure out a computer.
Just my 2 cents. Actually, probably around 33, given the length of this post.
Re:slashdotvoyeurdorm.com [drifting off topic] (Score:2)
And besides, with a site like that you would probably need/could afford T3 :) Based on an estimate I read that the average site "of that ilk" can bring in over $100k/mo
Stereotypes (Score:2)
Having read the various posts, I come to the conclusion that most
Why should we box ourselves using terms like "Geeks"?
Why should we subscribe to the stereotypes that Geeks (and Geek-chics) are supposed to be "geeky", that is, lack of social skills, shy, compulsive, wearing coke-bottle-glass, and so on, and so forth?
I mean, I have met with many hackers who hacked Linux and other things, and yes, few of them do fit the stereotipical description of "Geeks", but many more hackers I have met looks like normal people, and they do not walk straight to the wall either.
If only the people who frequent
I hope that those who think they are "Geek-chics" stop thinking that they are "geeks", because, no matter if you are a male or female, if you are good at programming doesn't mean that you have to be bad at communicating, or "making out" at the back seat of the car, and so on.
Re:Working with Lesbians =! Working with Women (Score:2)
I'm sorry. I repeat, 'what?'.
I assure you that lesbian women are definitely women. Also, lesbians were raised on this planet and in this culture so generally they were socialized in the same way as other members of their socio-economic background. Does sexuality play a part in personality? Definitely! Are all straight people the same? Nope. Are all gay people the same? Also nope. What would that make bisexuals anyhow?
Can you support your assertion that it is sexuality (as opposed to gender) that's the primary difference between men and women? It's funny. I've never seen that particular study. (Why do technical people insist on technical specificity about computers, but toss around generalizations in every other field?)
By the way, I don't have to be homosexual to disagree with you. I'm straight. But a lot of my close friends are gay and-- trust me-- they're pretty representative of their gender as whole.
Sigh.
Re:slashdotvoyeurdorm.com [drifting off topic] (Score:2)
Or failing that, watch hot Poser-generated babez overclock naked [i12.com].
Oh, the rampaging hormones...
Re:Oh come on (Score:2)
No, I wouldn't say that. But I'm a hacker (at least I regard myself as one, but that doesn't make me one, but for the purposae of this argument, there is no difference).
That argument is the old "girls-likes-this-and-boys-likes-that-and-nothing
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
Re:It's just that fewer girls are religions loons (Score:2)
It's not so much that he tried to do that, which I can almost understand, given the track record of Bell Labs when it comes to programming languages... as much as the fact that it has been forced down the collective throat of the programmer class.
I'm kind of sad that you didn't mention Python (http://www.python.org) as an OO language. One advantage of Python is that you can actually *do* things with it.
Sorry. Python's nice too.
__import__('SimpleHTTPServer').test()-ly y'rs. (if you're wondering, that's an HTTP server in standard Python. Yes. That's it.)
In that case...
(funcall (import
That's an ELIZA clone in Common Lisp. HA!
Re:Gay male hackers? (Score:2)
I think this is absolutely correct.
I have noticed a lot of overlap between geeks, those into BDSM and other alternative sexualities, magickians and other types of pagans, those whom study hypnosis and NLP, etc.
It seems to me that being a weirdo in one sense makes you much more likely to be a weirdo in other senses as well. People whom really think for themselves, whom are pioneers in solving problems, tend to question default assumptions in lots of different areas.
Re:It's just that fewer girls are religions loons (Score:2)
*pfffffft*
Oh man. See what you've done? Now I'll have to drink another glass of water, or I'll get dehydrated. I'm sorry, but that just cracked me up.
Y'know, I'd really like to see you justify the underlying assumptions you make about the reasons behind C++'s widespread adoption. I bet it'll be kind of akin to watching some Microserf explain how Microsoft won the OS war because of the superiority of its product. *snicker*
"But," one says, "Microsoft's propaganda tactics only worked on the uncultured masses! We, however are The Programmers: we are cultured, we are intelligent and we care not about appearances! That couldn't happen to us, right?
"Right?"
(One might want to educate oneself on what really goes on in the world of programming language R&D, and then take another look, from a fresh perspective, at an article such as that of C++-pusher Tim "functional languages are for theorists" Sweeney on Gamespy. It's an enlightening experience indeed.)
Re:The few I know are darn good at the job. (Score:2)
oh, and about the school thing -- I had the same experience. (this happened in Massachusetts, never seen anything this bad in California, where I live now) My teacher was EXACTLY the same way, and this was accepted, because "girls weren't as good at science" which is why they never got any A's. I did pull off an A by beating him over the head with it all semester ("um. Jeff and I have the EXACT same answer. why did I get no credit while he got full credit?") but the real debacle came when big science project came around. let it suffice it to say that I worked several hundred hours on mine, it was well documented, and actually uncovered something that the department of public works wasn't so happy about but did acnowledge (them big guys that work there are scary!). I got a B-. the girl sitting 2 seats away got an A on the project (stil a C in the class) for washing cloths with jelly stains in detergent the night before. I was, to put it midly, annoyed. I asked him about the grade. he said, and this is an exact quote --
"you made your results up"
hmm. that would explain the electronic balance I borrowed, as well as all the glassware, the litmus paper, the sample bottles, etc (yes, I brought the stuff back). and of course I just MADE UP all that documentation over a course of months. of course! it all makes sense now!
still makes me mad.
in any case, my point was that it does exist, and that in certain situations, you will probably be dinged for being female -- the only way to avoid this is being very good. thus, many of the not-so-good geek girls will not be around later. I've seen it happen.
Lea
Re:We got close to 50%..... (Score:2)
can you imagine a 2000 person camping trip with EECS majors? and this doesn't even include the CS majors (~200) and the minors (too many to count)
the EECS honor society does it, but that's about the limit of people to take. logistics starts interferring in a BIG way after that.
I'm still stunned you have that many female CS majors. in the US, female CS admissions are actually DROPPING, according to a few studies I read. oh well... I'm used to hanging around guys anyways
although training those money/parent pressure types is (I suppose) good since they can be code gimps, but is a real pity in a way, since they're probably not going to get what they think they are -- most of that's reserved for those who love it!
lea
Irony versus Coincidence (-1 Offtopic -1 Pedantic) (Score:2)
i ro ny - n.
* The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
* An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
* Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs.
co in ci dence - n.
* The state or fact of occupying the same relative position or area in space.
* A sequence of events that although accidental seems to have been planned or arranged.
Newscasters and college students are quite likely to overuse irony when they mean coincidence (or poignance).
Isn't it ironic that Ted Kaczynski's anti-technology terrorism campaign ended because his typewritten manifesto was circulated over the Internet? Isn't it a heck of a coincidence that it was his brother who turned him in?
'irony versus coincidence' =anagram> 'rude nice/icy conversions' =anagram> 'see concurrency division' =anagram> 'idiocy concerns universe'Re:It's just that fewer girls are religions loons (Score:2)
Second, I didn't mean to imply that you were a C++ zealot (like Sweeney is). I meant to imply that you were fooled into believing that C++ is widely used because of technical reasons, which is by and large not the case. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Third, you use the term "useful" a lot. I'd like to hear your definition of it, if you don't mind.
Fourth, the overhead argument doesn't hold up anymore. Just off the top of my head, Self and Squeak both have excellent optimising compilers that produce code that is, in most cases (and as far as one trusts any benchmarks at all), as fast as the equivalent C code. For all but the most low-level applications, the gain inherent in using real OO languages far exceeds any possible performance drops. (One might say that, for such a low-level application, or one that needed many low-level optimisations, one should just go ahead and write it in C with loads of inlined assembly code. I personally favour FORTH.)
Fifth, I am not a "true OOP zealot". I am, in fact, a FFP zealot, and a member of the TUNES [tunes.org] project. We are aiming at an integrated computing system that blurs the line between the "user" and the "developer", with a free-form, reflective, open, extensible and intuitive programming language. However, such a beast still doesn't exist. True OOP, OTOH, does, and it's good - at least far better than what you get from C++.