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Journal bmetzler's Journal: Misplaced anger? 38

Journal by bmetzler

We all now know how horrible interrogation is when you are a POW. It sickens all of us. It makes us wish that those who are bent on destroying not only our lives and freedoms but also the freedoms and lives of those around the world would just dissappear. Unfortunately, evil doesn't work that way. Evil struggles violently against those who protect our freedoms.

We should feel ashamed for those who have had to go those those interrogations. We should also feel ashamed for our own soldiers who have had to go through similar activities for training purposes.

However, although some Democrats are upset about the interrogations, I noticed that they failed to show a similar level of disgust when the 4 guys were tortured and murdered in Fallujah. Was that action much worse then the interrogations? And that's why I ask if their anger is perhaps misplaced. Perhaps they are not upset about the pictures as much as they are glad to use the pictures for political purposes. Perhaps they didn't care about the 4 in Fallujah because they did not serve any political purpose for them. And so the Democrats are using people for political purposes.

And that is what upsets me.

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Misplaced anger? More

Misplaced anger?

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  • Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday May 06, 2004 @10:10PM (#9079783)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Who was supplying Iraq with weapons?

      Uh, we were. Any other easy questions?

      • Yes. Who was supplying Iraq with over 85% of it's weapons? Answer: France, Russia, and China. Interesting, that. Irrelevant, though, I'm sure.
        • Who was supplying Iraq with over 85% of it's weapons?

          Ah, yes, that. Well, he didn't ask that, did he?

          You might almost think that, taken together, all the countries who were supplying Iraq with weapons constitute an axis of evil. ;-)

          Or, then again, maybe they were doing it for reasons similar to the ones for which we were doing it. Hard to say.

  • Those who were interrogated should be ashamed?! So you are assuming that they were all guilty?! Even apart from the fact that torture is one of the things the US was specifically going to end in Iraq, the assumption of their guilt is not a great way to set up a credible justice system.

    More to the point, to judge from Guatemalo Bay and 911 detainees in the US, it's likely that about 99% of those detained cannot be charged with anything, even post-"interrogation" which is likely to produce more false confess
    • Those who were interrogated should be ashamed?! So you are assuming that they were all guilty?! Even apart from the fact that torture is one of the things the US was specifically going to end in Iraq, the assumption of their guilt is not a great way to set up a credible justice system.

      No, I said that we should be ashamed at how the prisoners were intorrogated. But we should be more ashamed and upset at how our people were treated. Why aren't we?

      -Brent
      • Why aren't we?

        Well, gee whiz, I don't know...why don't you fucking tell us???
        • Since he doesn't want to answer...;->

          Because it is what we EXPECT of these FSoFs. It's in character for Islamicist[1] SOBs. There is no surprise, thus no outrage.
          Sorta like when a Democrat lies.
          /me ducks!
          It's a joke son, laugh. btw, see reply to some other guy in this JE. Your "better minds" theory just advanced three notches in the "relative credibility" scale.

          [1]Islamicist in the true sense, not just "islamic guys", though I'm on record as to my opinion of that religion.

          • btw, see reply to some other guy in this JE. Your "better minds" theory just advanced three notches in the "relative credibility" scale

            Now I am Theory.LAST_PLACE + 3? Go me.

            BTW - my theory is actually fact. Better minds HAVE thought about just about everything. I'm not saying that they're all correct, just that you'll save yourself a LOT of time buy reviewing their works in-depth before forming your final position. I don't think I wrote that you have to agree with any of them (although you probably w
          • Because it is what we EXPECT of these FSoFs. It's in character for Islamicist[1] SOBs. There is no surprise, thus no outrage.

            Which begs the question: why wasn't there outrage when Saddam used chemical weapons on his own people?

            Answer: Because back then he was our ally [comcast.net], duh!

            (Of course, in some of his past journal entries, our Host has implied that it is because "Liberals" actually celebrate such attrocities and Hate America).
            • Nah. Same answer. It's in character. It's what we EXPECT of middle east dictators. Ally, shmally.

              Just the same reason I'm not surprised when liberals hate america.
              /me ducks.

              • Just the same reason I'm not surprised when liberals hate america

                Yeah, and just like nobody is surprised at all when conservatives try to claim that any attack from Democrats against a Republican is just a cynical political ploy, no matter how justified that attack is, while the whole time attacking the Democrats as hard as they can for no good reason.
                /me uses political Aikido [slashdot.org], emerges from conflict unscathed

      • But we should be more ashamed and upset at how our people were treated.

        Well, two things. I think everyone was ashamed and upset about how our people were treated. I doubt you can find anyone who doesn't agree that it was horrible. But the thing is, we're a democratic republic, right? So we have some political power, at least in theory, over those who committed these acts. On the other hand, those who tortured and murdered our people were not part of our government. What they did was horrible, but there is

        • Re:Double standard? (Score:1, Insightful)

          by bmetzler ( 12546 ) *
          Shouldn't we be equally outraged when it happens to anyone?

          My whole JE was that we should be equally outraged. I'm as much outraged over this as I am about our people being tortured. But my point is that I don't see the liberals being as outraged when our people are tortured. And you know why I believe that is? I believe that the liberals are glad to use American lives for political gains.

          -Brent
          • And you know why I believe that is? I believe that the liberals are glad to use American lives for political gains.

            As opposed, presumably, to conservatives, who only throw away American lives for political gains, but would never actually use them, eh?

      • Because we weren't responsible. Seems pretty simple to me.

        Also, a year ago you and others were stating that one of the main benefits for the "cheering Iraqis" was that there would be no more torture (and I think you even referred to electrical torture), so don't you think it would be reasonable to concede that recent events have significantly weakened that argument?

        The point everyone should be making is that American torture is the exception, whereas Saddam torture was routine. But I don't think that's g

        • The point everyone should be making is that American torture is the exception, whereas Saddam torture was routine.

          Yes, that is the point the world should be making. That's what I hear Bush saying. But I am also aware that most of the media hates Bush and wants to make things look bad.

          -Brent
    • to be innocent
      stand up and face the enemy..." -- paraphrasing Pat Benatar

      Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-)

  • We're better than they are. We are held to a higher standard. (See the old Ann Coulter piece about why Rs are held to a higher "scadal standard" than Ds.. Same logic.)This is right. People are WILLING to give up because they KNOW we operate at a higher standard. Will they give up when it's hopeless now, or say "fuck it, I'd rather die fighting than go through that!"?

    I don't deny that some on the left are using this for cynical political purposes, and no I don't think that Bush or Rummy need to resign. But,

    • AMEN, brother.
    • Great post. The only thing that I might disagree with is whether or not Donald Rumsfeld should consider resigning. From what I have heard/read, CBS was going to broadcast something about this issue 3 or 4 weeks ago, but held off at the behest of senior Pentagon officials (possibly General Meyers, I forget). For President Bush to be left uninformed about this and be in the position of having to say that he only now found out about it was a disservice to the President. I am not saying that that President
      • The question, of course, is DID/SHOULD HAVE Rumsfeld known? I'm not sure (I'm not saying no, I's saying I'm not sure). An article 15-6 (call it a grand jury investigation, close enough) had been started in January. It appears to me that the request to wait on the story was to allow the investigation to close without the political circus that was to come. (the 15-6 report is available in PDF from fox news, linked in one of my messages from the last few days, too). So... We know the military was responding in
        • The question, of course, is DID/SHOULD HAVE Rumsfeld known?

          Yes. Any other easy questions? It was his decision to privatize the collection of intelligence, which is what created an environment in which this was possible. It was largely his idea to be there in the first place. Besides, he is, and has been for a very long time, one of the greatest forces of evil on the planet. The dark jedi himself has admitted full responsibility [abc.net.au] for these events. Down with Darth Rumsfeld! [slashdot.org]

          • Sure. WHY should he have known? Must he know every action that takes place in every location on the globe? I thought the job of "God" was already taken. At levels that high, you need to manage by exception.

            "Privitization of the collection of intelligence" is irrelevant (or at best of very marginal importance) here. These were US soldiers, under US commanders who committed these acts. As a US soldier, I would love to say "it was the damn contractors!!" But that would be untrue.

            He ACCEPTED full responsibilit

            • WHY should he have known?

              Let me clarify that. He should have had structures in place to prevent it from happening in the first place. That should have been way higher on his list of priorities. IMHO, he has shown blatant disregard for the rights of Iraqis throughout this whole thing, and it is that attitude which led to these abuses. Historically speaking, occupying armies almost always abuse the populations of the occupied countries. Rummy is no dummy. He should have known that, and taken more effective

              • Rummy is no dummy.

                Heh. You're a poet, too!

                Seriously though, steps had been taken, checks were in place. The problem is that in one particular Battalion of one particular Brigade, the checks were not implimented, and the "required" steps not taken. The 15-6 investigation pretty well showed where the breakdown happened. I think it is unfair to seriously expect Rummy to have knowledge of what is going on in every single unit in the Army.

                I can state, as someone who has gone through all the training, and bee

                • we go well out of our way to NOT abuse the Iraqi population

                  That is very noble of you. Really, it is, and I appreciate it. This is part of what is supposed to make America better. I'm glad that our troops go out of their way to avoid atrocities, and I think they deserve credit for that.

                  But it happened anyway. There's no getting around that. We can't just say, "oops, we accidentally tortured, murdered, and raped a few people, we didn't mean to, sorry." That's not going to cut it. Heads must roll, metapho

    • WERD.

      My personal reaction when I saw the pictures of the 4 contractors was "well, now we have the pictures of people celebrating around the bodies...so find the fuckers and kill them!" And supposedly I'm a "liberal." Imagine that.

      Meanwhile, my reaction to the iraqi torture pictures wasn't "outrage" but disappointment...disappointment that anyone would treat another human being like that. As Bush himself said: "That's not America."

      Anyway, I guess my feelings regarding the 4 contractors aren't valid becau
    • We're better than they are.

      Do you actually believe that? Maybe they hold the Americans to higher standard because they SAY that they are better and people beleive that simply because they don't know better. This little thing should show that you're wasting valuable brain space. "You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and people. There are no Russians. There are no nations. There are no people. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. THERE IS NO WEST. There is only one holistic system o [64.233.167.104]
      • Yes. I Do.

        "because they don't know better."
        That's BS. That's an attempt to classify those you disagree with as ill-informed, because "all reasonable people agree that" without going to the effort of actually prove your case.

        little thing should show that you're wasting valuable brain space.

        You seriously think some lines from a movie should take the place of critical thought? Hell, I'll have to tell CvR that I have newfound respect for his "better minds" theory. LOL.

        As for the quote, and the "logic" beh

        • I could almost believe you if the west led by exmple instead of brute force. Marcos, Samoza, Duarte(El Salvador, I think), The Shah of Iran, Noriega, in fact, all the dictators of Central America, good ol' Pinoche(let's not forget him), Diem(The west stuffed ballot boxes to assure his victory in 1954 Vietnam), the dictators of South African Aparthied, and old boy Saddam himself, were all put into power or supported by the west. Anybody who thinks that this support is any less despicable than the the persons
      • Do you actually believe that?

        I for one do not believe that anybody is better than anyone else, in an absolute sense. But I do believe that we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. We may not be better than other people who torture and murder and rape, but we should be, and we have to try to be.

        Furthermore, in our public discourse, we claim to be better than that. So should't we try to live up to this claim?

        I like your quote. That's the meaning of my sig, actually, if you think about it. All thes

  • Hmmm (Score:2)

    by Pike ( 52876 )
    Why not ask the Iraqis what they think? The BBC did. [blogspot.com]
  • you're upset at Democrats because the News Media never televised or printed Democrat disgust at the murder and mutilation of 4 American Civilian "Contractors." Of course, you should also be upset at the FACT that the media neither televised, nor printed Republican disgust.

    So, are you upset at Republicans, too?
  • Complete a simple Google search for the four men killed and mutilated in Fallujah and you will find the following:

    1. KBR representive that made one statement.
    2. White House Press Sec made one statement.
    3. Paul Bremmer made one statement.
    4. Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt made one statement.
    5. Several Islamic Clerics made statements.

    And that's it. Nothing else. No Democrats made a statement. No Republicans made a statement.

    Brent,
    First, I understand if you don't respond to this. That's fine.

    Second, please

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