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Comment Re:If you are so sure (Score 1) 261

Did you miss the bit about "equal work"?

And the definition of equal work is what?

As one person told me when discussing this subject "My bread costs the same as yours. He was in big favor of a Union-like rule that if you are a sheet metal worker, that the newest and most experienced should get exactly the same pay.

I'll note that as he put in more years, it didn't seem quite so fair.

Regardless, there are people out there that demand that.

Let us take the Patriarchy out of the equation and deal with an only female situation

So tell me. A Woman who takes a year off from her position every time she has a child, should she be paid the same as a person in the same job who continued to work those 10 years?

This is not a hypothetical question. We had a staff assistant who over a 10 year period, had three children, and took the max leave each time.

And in an odd twist of equality, she got her her job back each time. While that sounds like the height of equality, that meant that her activity cost three other women their jobs, as the temporary workers lost theirs when she came back.

And if you asked her, almost certainly she will say yes. Her co-workers? Maybe not so much. The three women who lost their jobs? I dunno, they weren't around to ask.

If you were to ask the people who worked with me yet were making a third of what I was - I wonder what their response would be. I know many didn't like it one bit. That didn't cause them to start working harder.

The Ledbetter act, that modifies the Equal Pay act (1963!!) also known as the Fair Pay Act of 2009 shows a prima facie cas as:

Prohibits paying employees in a job dominated by a particular sex, race, or national origin less than employees in another job dominated by the opposite sex or a different race or national origin, if the jobs are “equivalent” and in the same establishment. “Equivalent jobs” means “jobs that may be dissimilar, but whose requirements are equivalent, when viewed as a composite of skills, effort, responsibility, and working conditions.”

An affirmative defense to the charges has to be

“Factor other than sex” – employer must prove: (1) such factor is either job- related with respect to the position in question or furthers legitimate business purpose; and (2) that such factor was actually applied and used reasonably in light of asserted justification. Employees could rebut legitimate business purpose defense by demonstrating that an alternative employment practice exists that would serve the same business purpose without producing such differential and employer has refused to adopt such alternative practice. It's rather difficult to find the actual contents, with most people simply siding into their camps and battling it out. http://www.americanbar.org/con...

So I think the woman who had all the children in short order, might actually have a case. Why should she be paid less than teh other women who did not make the choice to do that?

And as for the law, as I see it, my seniority or work skills are not applicable under the new law, a woman or whatever gender one feels like using, who refuses to work any more than 40 hours a week will have a successful lawsuit. Based on our genders - no one owuld ever expect her to say it wasn't gender based. Thoughts?

Comment Re:If you are so sure (Score 1) 261

I do not know all of the details of this equal pay business, so I could be talking out of my ass - wouldn't be the first time. But its not remotely cut and dried. Let's hope it doesn't become a least common denominator situation.

What, you think everybody is going to be at risk of getting the same pay, across the board?

Sure, whatever.

Meanwhile, my local police department just had to settle a lawsuit for over half a million dollars because of pay disparities. Some people got paid more. Some people got paid less. And there was ZERO explanation for it.

The pay was just different.

I reprinted your post because it was so interesting. Despite your "sure whatever part, your post in the next paragraph offers the disproof of what you say.. If no one knows why, it might have been to pay everyone the same. But hey! Whatev.

Comment Re:Cool (Score 1) 261

Fuck me, I'd forgotten how fucking awful comments on this site are.

Oh well. It's been nice, Slashdot. But I think we're done.

Trigger warning! Someone's about to post something......

SRSLY? Entitiy, if that comment pushed you over the edge, you sersiously need a safe area where no one dares utter a word you disagree with. That wasn't even designed to upset anyone.

If I knew you needed something to piss and moan about, I'd do a lot better than that post. I haz mad skillz.

Comment Re:If you are so sure (Score 1) 261

That's all good, but it still doesn't answer the question of how you suffer if someone else doing the same job makes as much as you.

Then we have to define Job and work. The job that a bunch of others and myself had was the same. The work we did? Along with one other guy who are professional and willing to put in extra. We did a helluva lot more work than the rest of them.

Which is all to say, if someone with the same job was doing as much work as I was, I don't have a problem if it was female, black, hispanic, gay transgender or a bunny rabbit.

If someone with the same job was doing much less, such as refusing to work anything other than 8-5, refusing to go on field trips to work, refusing to work the meetings, then yes, I do have a problem with them making as much as me for doing significantly less work, end especially less of the more demanidng work.

And while not all co-workers were like that - there was another guy who was seriously competent that I woked with, most of the others were not.

And there is an inconvenient truth that only two of the women were willing to do anything other than minimum. Those two were as hard working as my deceased frind and myself. Hell for big meetings, I would often finish people's work for them that would not otherwise be finished in time. This was known to management, and another reason for the pay differential.

So the question might be reversed, should everyone with the same job description be paid exactly the same, regardless of work output or experience?

That by the way, is as equal an inequity as the opposite.

Comment Re:Cool (Score 1) 261

Yeah. I've survived several layoffs. A big part of that was being the one that was fixing the issue at 5:01pm. And may or may not come in the next day. It takes a while for mgmt to learn to trust an employee for one to be able to do that. Typically when they gain that trust the emp will get changed from hourly to salaried.

There are rewards, and they aren't that insignificant. It's good to see someone else here on Slashdot that has this figured out. Seems like most of these people hate work and their employers so much that they turn their careers into self fulfilling prophecies.

Comment Re:Cool (Score 1) 261

Your countries IT pay laws are fucking stupid.

In my country if you work 40 hours, you get paid for 40 hours, if you work 60, you get paid for 60.

Why would anyone in their right mind work 60 hours to get paid for 40? That is beyond retarded. You are actually a retard for working more than you are paid for.

Because my little sweet potato, if you had paid attention, I was getting paid a lot more than if I was paid their wages plus overtime. I may be a "retard", but I can definitely do better math than you can.

Aside from that, I was a professional.

Comment Re:Cool (Score 1) 261

It i very common that unmarried/kidless people get asked to work extra, whereas their married counterparts do not. Everyone thinks it is more evil to ask a parent to sacrifice family time for work than to ask some reproductive failure who would just be wasting that free time anyway (though they don't consciously think of it in such terms).

While I understand where you are coming from, I managed to have my long work week, have a wife and 1 child and even play Ice Hockey and be president of the local Youth Ice hockey league. It was a lot of work, and I was probably capable of a bit more of that than the average person. I don't sleep all that much. That's why I never had much sympathy for the people who are "too busy".

It is considered even MORE evil to ask a mother to sacrifice family time, because mothers are sacred in our society.

And that is okay, as long as people understand that if a woman makes the choice to have her family take precedence over all else, it's okay. Or a guy even.

But I draw the line at the place where someone decides that the person with other priorities must be paid the same as me. Probably the best example of why I have that opinion was when there was a tight deadline, and the evening before, I got to stay late and finish other people's work who couldn't be bothered to finish it themselves. Happened a lot.

Yeah - they should be paid the exact same wages as me? I don't think so.

Comment Re: You forget that (Score 1) 261

I agree there is no difference morally, but there is a big difference societally. A female who decides all men are rapists gets rewarded with Title IX kangaroo courts in universities where the man's right to trial by jury is denied.

By the way, in the citadels of learning where much of the misandry is enabled, there are cracks in the foundations. The University of Chicago sent a letter to all incoming students that included in part:

"Our commitment to academic freedom means that we do not support so-called 'trigger warnings,' we do not cancel invited speakers because their topics might prove controversial, and we do not condone the creation of intellectual 'safe spaces' where individuals can retreat from ideas and perspectives at adds with their own," the letter from Dean John Ellison said, sent Wednesday to the class of 2020.

"Members of our community are encouraged to speak, write, listen, challenge and learn, without fear of censorship," the letter also said. "You will find that we expect members of our community to be engaged in rigorous debate, discussion, and even disagreement. At times this may challenge you and even cause discomfort."

http://www.businessinsider.com... Full text https://twitter.com/ChicagoMar...

The problem of course is that in earlier attempts to be inclusive of other viewpoints, Universities have found that many of those who desired inclusiveness had no intention of granting it to others. Not only that, but the denials of expression that the snowflake crowd demanded started to extend into ridiculous areas, such as chasing comedians off campus, and while one could find Bill Maher offensive - of course, that's what he's trying to do, be offensive , funny and make you think, but their outrage extended to Jerry Seinfeld. Seinfeld and others don't even play college campuses any more.

The snowflakes even extended their umbrage unbrella toward Halloween costumes. They would deny others what they demand for themselves.

This might be coming to an end, as Universities are figuring out that the model is a tyranny of the presumably oppressed. Expect to see the whackadoodle element scramble to find other places where they can act all outraged.

Comment Re:Cool (Score 1) 261

I am a single white male, and while I've never cried about it, I have griped about it. You may like being told to bend over and take it up the ass, but not everyone does. Some of us still believe that the 40 hour work week should be a thing.

That's because you are not professional. And are completely unable to comprehend that not everyone has your McDonald's employee outlook. And I'm not even going to say that's a bad thing.It weeds out the people I would otherwise have ot compete with.

We had a few folks like you. They ended up unemployed. But, the food stamp lifestyle may be just your thing.

What about option 3? Instead of you both being salary, you are instead both hourly. That way, you are both "paid the same", but you still get paid more because you worked more time.

People will complain about that as well Why should I have to always work the extra? Even though I did a lot, I still got paid the same even if I didn't.

Why? Because they knew they could depend on me when business needed that.

At least until you are disallowed from working overtime. Which yes I think you should be. We've already been down that road, we don't need to revisit it.

Too bad charlie. It's a competitive world out there, and if you can't keep up, well then, sink to your lowest sustainable level, and have your pride and no one is gonna take advantage of me!" for lunch. No one had to be exactly like me. But there is a whole spectrum between the person who thinks anything extra is getting boned, and the Ol Olsoc types. If there is a big meeting tomorrow, and a couple hours extra work needed, the person who does that work it the valuable one, not you. All a matter of attitude, and rewards.

I've seen your type come and go over the years. Too proud or too something to work any extra at all. Do as little as possible to collect that paycheck. The bosses are all assholes and pricks. And anyone lifting a finger to do anything extra is stupid.

I've also seen them be the first our the door when times get rough. And they can take their ideas that I was getting boned and deposit that in the bank. I retired early, and they are still working, most a few rungs down on the food chain. Who's getting boned now? One fell the whole way to being a waitress - not a bad place to start and all, as a waitress/waiter is a perfectly good thing to do, if a tough way to make a living - but in general, moving up is considered a career move, not starting all over again. I guess that's what happens when you aren't gonna let anyone take advantage of ya. Let us know how that works out for ya.

Comment Re: You forget that (Score 1) 261

Yet another thing women fail at, killing themselves. But they succeeded at getting media attention and suicide prevention support groups just for them. I guess if that was their goal, then a hardy bravo is in order.

Considering the latest form of feminism, the "I am too weak to withstand any negativity, people need to check their speech so I am not triggered, and I need a safe place where only people that agree with me can be around me, and the special women's help because we experience enverything harder feminism - well, it's a short drive to burkha land, where the women are considered too weak to be around the men. And almost completely apart.

Can we get jazz hands for that?

Comment Re:If you are so sure (Score 3, Insightful) 261

Why does the progressive left always require other people to suffer to make up for suffering their policies have caused?

I'm curious. Why does it make you "suffer" because someone else gets paid as much as you do?

How does equal pay make you suffer?

Imagine me making a pro free market statement - so hold on to your hats!!!

In my situation I was very well paid - over 3 times what most of the people in my department of the same position.

But there was a reason for this. I worked outside my job definition as needed, I participated in research and coauthored papers, I interfaced effectively with all levels from the janitors to visiting dignitaries. I'd travel and work offsite, and spend as much time needed to get the job done. It was a very fluid situation, so you couldn't just throw more people at it - you needed that sort of dedication. And heaven help HR if they tried to make a job description.

So now we have to make an argument for a new person coming in being compensated the same as me. Or if the new person is female and doesn't want to work more than 40 hours a week. THe only female I know that regularly did that is my wife, an alpha chick of the "we are equal" variety, and I've worked with many.

Should this new person get the same pay as me? All of the typical suit's arguments asitde, that could be done. They could triple their wages.

But now there is me. My contribution was indeed worth more than theirs. I knew that, the people I worked for knew that. I would exercise my free market value and leave for higher pay somewhere else if the noob who wouldn't work more than 40 hours a week or work as hard or in as many areas with an expanded skillset. Or just work at the same level as they did.

On the other hand, there is no reason that a female doing the same thing shouldn't be compensated as much.

So they paid me more.

I do not know all of the details of this equal pay business, so I could be talking out of my ass - wouldn't be the first time. But its not remotely cut and dried. Let's hope it doesn't become a least common denominator situation.

Comment Re: You forget that (Score 2) 261

It definitively sucks to be judged by a collective based on your race and gender, rather than your individual merits and hardships.

Bigotry does not know limits based on gender. A female who decides all men are rapists is no different in principle that a Klan member who believes all blacks are inferior. All men have a rape switch http://jezebel.com/5279283/is-...

That's pretty offensive. But watch the feedback telling us that its somehow different.

Comment Re:You forget that (Score 2) 261

Higher suicide rate is actually more like a higher success at suicide rate.

Check your privilege, you tool of the patriachy! Your insinuation of the tired old accusation that men are more competent than women is offensive!. Just kidding, but if we are going to go there, I'm going to make fun of it.

When is this inequity iniquity going to end? We must tirelessly work until women are as successful as men in offing themselves. Close the suicide gap!

Comment Re:Cool (Score 3, Interesting) 261

Can they work equal time?

Cause in my experience there's a lot more "oh my children" time given and no "Hey I am a single white male" time compensated.

Hopefully, the work itself will have some impact on compensation. I was the highest paid person in my department by far. That's because I would put in the work needed to get the job done. Trying to get a female co-worker to put in anything over 40 hours was almost impossible. The reasons it was impossible was that "I have to cook dinner for my husband/pick up the kids at day care/I have a golf match/group therapy/I'm in a car pool/I have a headache. The same for most field trips.

To the point where in over 30 years, I recall one time a female co-worker worked overtime. She even cried about it.

After 5 was a sausagefest, as they say. So I'd be interested in seeing some equality in that area as well.

And that's a big issue, because although I'm retired now, if my co-workers who couldn't be bothered to put in any extra when needed were paid the same as me, I'd either need a promotion, or would also have to cook dinner for my wife.

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