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Journal GMontag's Journal: On the "Downed" Apache 8

Journal by GMontag

I finally got to see enough pictures to agree with the on-air analysts that the Apache, claimed to have been shot down by "peasants", probably landed due to an internal mechanical problem unrelated to enemy fire.

First, I finally saw both engine housings, no visible signs of damage to the engines, intakes, exhaust, at all.

Second, there are plenty of other places you can hit an Apache (from knowledge of the old ones, assuming it applies to the new ones too) and cause lots of problems with different systems. Back in the day, if the airconditioning system (it has a longer name, but that's what it is) went out it took, I think, seventeen other systems down with it. The aircraft would limp in with smoke coming out of lots of access panels, etc. In this case, no bullet holes visible on the video I saw anyplace on the aircraft, no smoke discoloration.

Third, the gear left behind that was shown on video looked like the stuff an aviator would leave behind when he begins evasion. Flight helmet, odds and ends that are just taking up room in your flightsuit, etc. No captured servival gear was shown, no side arms (those would have been taken by the capturing "pesants" or anybody else). The landing gear appeard to be compressed, like from a hard but controlled landing. Maybe the grass is higher by the aircraft than it appeared to me on TV, in that case there might not be any landing gear damage.

Fourth, even though the Pilot In Command door (PIC flies in the back) was standing open, the Co-Pilot (CP is the gunner in the front) door was closed. Suggests that the crew had enough time to properly exit the aircraft.

Some might suggest that the aviators were not shown on TV because the Iraqis were just naieve about the Geneva rules the other day and are now being "good guys" and following the rules as they learn them. I doubt this, but even if it were true the gear being shown on TV would be different.

Of course, these are just guesses on my part, personal observations, time will tell if it is correct.

Also, the speculation as to why the aircraft has not been destroyed by Coalition forces is a bit odd. Battalion level commanders are the lowest level that can order an Army aircraft destroyed.

Doctrine (well known by our opponents, well published in military journals, I am not revealing any "secrets" here) is that we will probably take the area where the aircraft landed pretty soon anyway and would like the pieces still usable.

Standing orders may have been modified too.

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On the "Downed" Apache More

On the "Downed" Apache

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  • I thought it was really odd to see a intact aircraft just like it had a perfect landing. I hope that they just drop a daisy cutter on the damn thing, since you know that the Iraqi's are just going to sit on that thing, thinking we are dumb enough to just walk back in and pick it up.

    I doubt they have the know-how to fix and fly it, but if they did, that could really bring some problems, since there would be no way to identify it. Maybe the IFF systems have some kind of serial number that they can take out
    • The IFF has a changeable code in it. Codes are changed on a periodic basis, the schedule is known by the Coalition units. The actual device could be of interest, but it is probably easily available without capturing an aircraft.
    • I'm guessing that an unexpected radar incoming that did not answer to voice questioning would be targeted, those Brits in the Tornado apparently did not answer to AWACS before the Patriot droped them.
      • I heard that they have strict procedures when you are flying from enemy territory back to US/Coalition territory, and apparently they were not followed, and that was the result.

        Do we have other SAM's that defend against aircraft, or are Patriots just a general purpose SAM, which is fired against both planes and missiles?

        On another topic, I just wanted to post this URL, since the mainstream media isn't covering this:

        Human Shields changing their mind [washingtontimes.com]
        • STINGER (several different configurations), crap I am getting old, forgetting the names of some the others.

          IFF for STINGER is a box not attached to the missile, plus the visual identification by the gunner.
          • Digging around the only actively deployed SAM systems in use are the Patriot and Stinger based systems, the Hawk (MIM-23) and Sparrow (AIM-7) based systems were phased out in the 90's. There is a development contract on using a Norwegian designed six pack of AARAMS (AIM-120) for Hummer, Bradley, and Ship-based Medium Range SAM usage, but the contract only went live in 2001 so any usage would be from ally purchased stocks. It looks like a bastardized grouping of the old Chaparal (AIM-9 Sidewinder) and a ha
  • Is there some type of protocol that the pilots take when they know they are going down?

    I'm sure the Army has to be prepared for this.

    I know our boat had procedures if we were going to fall into emeny hands.
    An old boss of mine, former Marine, told me that the classified laptops had a "Shoot here" sticker, right where the hard drive platter is. There has to be something similiar on the Apache.
    • Clear any equipment that has "codes" in it, don't forget to take the keys (yes, they have a start key for the aircraft too, but not exactly like a car). That's all.

      As mentioned before, Battalion Commanders are the lowest grade that can authorize destruction of an aircraft (at least a few years ago that was the deal). Unless they had an authenticated message from a commander or above then they are not even supposed to shoot up the radios.

      A Viet Nam story about one of those was a guy decided to shoot up h

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