And having browsed through more of the threads, I think we're _actually_ doing better here, in the bowels of the comments in a sudo sandwich joke, than a lot of the rest of the page. What this means in the scope of humanity... a glimmer of hope? Or total doom- I have no idea!

Well, for what it's worth that sounds more like a grade school playground or a basket full of hyper puppies than what someone would usually want from a functional workplace. Not to say people should go the other extreme and work in a lifeless, humorless void, but hitting and cruelty, just...no.

While I would not say "disaster", it is unfortunately not a valid option for consideration. However, your request has been filed in the Internet Marriage Proposal stack.

Then use Perl. Receive satisfying sandwich with far less overhead.

Enjoy your air sandwich, if you have a good imagination, it can almost taste like chicken.

>>>>Professionally, it's my least used word as people (men and women both) tend to remember the few times you say "no" a lot more then the majority of the times you say "yes"...

****

Bah-- proofreading. The above needs rephrasing. Let's try this again:

"Professionally, it's my least used word as men and women, both, tend to remember the few times you say "no" a lot more then the majority of the times you say "yes"...

I'm non-confrontational too for the most part, but not passive. While I *am* an introvert who's happiest with a comfy desk chair, some good music and a really great project to work on, when it comes to working with other people I found I had to be really flexible with my approach and also tailor how I react to whom I'm speaking with. We're both out now but just in case you ever feel like diving back in, here's what I found I needed to do in case it could be of help for you or anyone else reading this.

Most of the time, if things are going well or something comes up as a change that is (in my own professional view) not really necessary but also not harmful to a project- just go with the flow. However, if you see a problem it's your responsibility to bring attention to it. And that's where it can get really tricky.

As a societal construct, for the most part we are not taught to use the word "no" until it's at the point of becoming a personal defense mechanism. For many women it's a showstopper word, unladylike, hostile and just not part of the daily working vocabulary. It's also one of the most powerful words to have in your arsenal when it's needed, when you follow it up with "_why_ this won't work" *and* (most importantly) another option or an alternate way of looking at the problem if the person you are talking to doesn't quite understand what the problem is. Professionally, it's my least used word as people (men and women both) tend to remember the few times you say "no" a lot more then the majority of the times you say "yes" as it's unexpected, and it *will* shape other people's perception of you, but I just chalk it up to one of those necessary tools that's needed when working with people.

It's a magic word that helps stop project eroding things like scope creep, personal work overload (as you know better than anyone else how much you can take at a time, though with the nature of the industry be expected to use that rarely since high workloads are part of the territory) and keeping yourself on an even keel with the more extroverted co-workers. It doesn't come close to "fixing" everything, but there are situations where it's an absolute must.

Try saying "No" out loud. It sounds weird to say it. This is going to sound goofy, but practice how to say it "flat", with very little emotion behind it, and in conversation be ready to back it up with at the very least a "why". Don't use it unless you really have to, but be ready to use it. And when that still doesn't work and you don't have the attention right then, be ready to walk away. Not in a huff, no parting shot, just a simple "we don't have time for this now" or "let me know when you want to discuss this" will do -- even *over* what they are saying, and then do it. Chances are very good it can either be resolved in email, or at a later time when the other party is willing to listen.

I realize this sounds like a luxury or risky. It sort of is. Position matters too, as a trainee or junior programmer I would have never thought of using it (or when I had to convey issues- I used "soft" words), but as I got more responsibility I had to in turn become more assertive on scale, simply due to the nature of the job.

But sometimes no matter what you do, you will still end up with a full loss situation (as opposed to a compromise, which was what I generally aimed for with conflict- even while using the word "no" as a tool) and that's just going to happen. It happens to all of us.

There's a whole other flipside to this- and it's about learning how to sell your ideas, but this has already gone into journal length and well, we're on Slashdot which probably isn't the best venue. There are probably some great resources out there for that (though I don't have any on hand right now) but it's worth looking into if you're ever up for having another go in the IT world (or just have to pick up a job in addition to your business in order to make ends meet).

But to wrap this up- if you can find a way to use both your passive/introverted traits but also incorporate some assertive/extroverted tools, you'll probably end up with at least a more satisfying or at least manageable environment.

Best of luck whatever you decide to do.

Well played, sir, well played.

I wonder if it's one of those weird convergence things :-) It's kind of weird dusting off this account, maybe I'll even stick around for a bit.

I left after almost a decade in IT (and Tech, I was in a split position for a while) to start my own business. Though I didn't leave due to sexism, I can't say I'd paint a rosy picture of the industry either. To tackle one issue (I tend to take them one at a time), when someone is being pushy or cutting you off (I don't know if you saw my post upthread), *if* you have the luxury the best way I found to deal with it was push back (or walk away). It doesn't seem like an intuitive way to deal with a situation, it probably won't feel *right* at all (and it certainly doesn't always win me friends) but when that's what I need to do, it's what I do.

I don't know what it's like in other areas of the country, I'm on the West Coast where things *might* be a little more laid back (though there's that whole Bay Area cooler than everyone else bro-geek scene that I would not even want to deal with now). Trade shows tend to be weird in general and the internet- just, ugh... I try not to read most of the crap that people for whatever reason feel they must type out to hang it on the virtual refrigerator to try to get a gold star from people they don't even know. I haven't even read most of the comments on this particular story. Not worth my time.

If you still love the code, or the hardware, or whatever it was that brought you to it in the first place- I can't encourage trying again if you're going to get crapped on for your efforts, but can't really discourage it either if it's what you want to do. I'll still get the wild hair and dabble in the occasional FOSS project (under nicknames) but that's a whole 'nother level of chaos and not always the friendliest place, to be honest.

I'm not really much for candles unless the power is out but gardens are pretty damn cool, I've been thinking of trying to start one (though I can't grow anything for crap). I'm glad you're in a good place now. And you're not the only one out there.

Take care, high five and best of luck!

Well if you'd use a *real* root account you'd probably know how to make yer own damn sandwich :-)

The downmod as flamebait could have just been a knee-jerk reaction, or it could have been the use of generalizations in your post (which usually doesn't go over so well), or maybe the person who modded the post didn't like their lunch or something and the a pile-on going with the crowd effect happened. And as much as I hate to say this... well, it's Slashdot. It's always been like that (for better or worse). I'm hardly here anymore since I'm out of the field too, but I saw a link posted elsewhere (and also wanted to take the rare opportunity to talk to someone on the internet who was both in IT *and* has the same name :-) ). And while there are going to be jerks here like most everywhere else, there are some pretty cool people too if you can filter out the noise.

This is sorta surreal (and also a bit doppelganger-ish with the name co-incidence :-) ), but as far as communication...

When I was in IT (or any other department, FWIW) and someone talked over me or interrupted me- I'd interrupt them back, then if *that* didn't work (and the conversation was really going nowhere), I'd usually walk away. Most times it got the point across :-D