Microsoft Closing Firefly 62
Next week Microsoft will shut down Firefly. For those who don't know, Firefly was responsible in large part for popularizing collaborative filtering, something online retailers such as Amazon and CDNow are now also utilizing. It's a shame to see it go. Microsoft has apparently taken the code and is using it for the soon-to-be-launched Microsoft Passport site which lets people give information once and buy merchandise from vendors without needing to type it in again.
Re:World Domination through Monopolistic Acquisiti (Score:1)
Um, between Passport and the PIII chip.... I think it may be time to be truly scared already.
Mind you, I refuse to enter my info on a MS page, and I will never buy a PIII chip, or even accept one for free. You would need to pay ME to use one...
Re:recommendation was cool! (Score:1)
Have you used anything since then that's produced good recommendations?
-me
Re:Been following FireFly ever since it was a magg (Score:1)
They had a great idea! Too late? A GPL version? (Score:1)
For me it was more frustrating than anything else. (Score:1)
I then proceeded to head over to usenet and look at groups like alt.music.dream-theater and see what the people there tend to listen to. They have never steered me wrong yet. Plus, thanks to mp3's and the web, I can now get a feel for what a group sounds like before I spend 16-30 bucks on a CD (I have to order a lot of things as imports, thanks to the backward music climate in this country, (the US for any of you who are interested))
All in all, it seemed like firefly was for people who didn't want to expend the effort to attempt to find things on their own.
The smaller places that sell cds over the internet are much more helpful in that they are staffed by humans who are fans of the music they sell. Not only can they tell you what you would like if you already liked a certain artist, they can tell you which cd to start with. This is much more useful than an agent could ever be. audiophileimports.com is my friend =)
With all that said, I can't really comment on the community that sprung up around firefly, as I never really visited it. I'm just saying that the technology never really impressed me.
head/heart-thinking (Score:1)
But now that collaborative filtering and its cousins have become ubiquitous, Firefly is simply obsolete. For sure, I don't like the idea of that kind of community-based (or rather, community-built) enterprise coming with a price-tag, but the people behind its innovation took the money and ran years ago.
In the meantime, have a look at this project: the Remembrance Agent [mit.edu]. It's a smarter data-mine; it locks into Emacs; it's open-source; and it's part of a cool project for wearable computers. I like it lots.
and Bill can use YOUR card # instead of his! (Score:1)
Businesses (Score:1)
Sometimes that goal is indirectly achieved by destroying competitors. This tends to be very effective in the short-run, but is harder to sustain in the long run as you're effectively limiting consumer choice. [which, ahem, I think the DOJ noticed...]
In any case, the key principle for business is to be "market-focused". If two technologies are near-identical in the *VALUE* they provide to users, then there is a moral business case to put one of those technologies to rest.
In Firefly's case, they are, I believe, using some of firefly's technology in their own Passport site. The technology lives on, the business gets to remove one extra layer of indirection from the market.
This was probably the "right" decision.
Been following FireFly ever since it was a maggot (Score:2)
At the time, it existed only as a music recommendation program. (It was called something else at the time, I forget what). You rated artists you like and hate, and based on your ratings and others' ratings, it would give you the "top 5 artists you'd probably like". The more artists you rated, the more accurate the results. And it was always right, at least for me. It introduced me to a LOT of music I would have otherwise probably never heard (or even heard of). Of course in the early days a larger percentage of the users were into non-mainstream music (like I am).
Then, they got some venture capital funding or something and created a company/web site called FireFly. It started to go a little more mainstream, and they started adding virtual community features to the site. All of which distracted from their primary strength, the music recommendation system. And they made changes to it as well, adding more of a random element to its' recommendations. Instead of giving you the calculated top five, it would give you five "recommendations" that would change every time you visited. At this point I started losing interest... the recommendations were not always spot-on.
Later they decided they wanted to sell this collaborative filtering technology to others. They shutdown the FireFly site & they turned over the music recommendation system and its database to Launch.com. Firefly started catering to the marketers with its technology. At this point I completely lost interest in the company. And I didn't like what Launch did to the recommendation system.
So now I hear M$ has bought and squashed FireFly. Yawn.
Re:Hah! (Score:1)
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Re:World Domination through Monopolistic Acquisiti (Score:1)
It's Paul Allen's investment/venture capital co. They have been buying pretty much any cable companies they can get their hands on. My guess is that Bill and Paul have spend more than one night talking about how they can control the media both from the desktop (or settop-through CE) over the cable, on the server and in the browser. Thank god for grass roots, hippie "share the love" movements like Linux. (please, don't flame for silly little jokes..)
Re:Passport Good, but not by MS (Score:1)
It's not that I don't think that MS is sleazy, but at the same time I am sitting here with my wallet containing Visa cards issued by Citibank and Associates. These companies have equally bad records for expanding well beyond the sphere of business that they origionally started in and buying out all of their smaller competition.
The moral of the story is that if you want to buy stuff online, you're stuck with the process being coordinated by scum that's just out there to make a buck. Who cares if it's MS or MBNA it's all the same rat race if you ask me.
Re:Passport == centralized authorization system (Score:1)
1. It never works - so many servers are hitting it trying to authenticate users that it repeatedly crashes (ala the crack W2K contest).
2. It works, but security is so crappy that someone cracks the machine - sucessfully - and gains access to everyone's login and password for all of the servers using M$ Passport.
3. Bill Gates gets bored one day and decides to spend other peoples money by using other people's logins - in the process ordering 25 new toilets for his house.
I think a centralized registry is a good idea - but only when it is my data on my machine.
Well, I remember HOMR. (Score:1)
I wonder if there are alternatives to HOMR around out there now? It'd be cool to have an Open Source HOMR, and what with the MP3 scene being what it is these days, it could result in some nice, organized, instant gratification music appreciation...
Re:At least Microsoft paid before destroying... (Score:1)
Re:Let not the veil of nostalgia taint Fly's passi (Score:1)
maybe its a hint from amazon that you're getting a little flabby?
Recommenders in general? (Score:1)
Have you guys seen good results with these systems (or anybody else's for that matter)?
I have several theories as to what problems exist with the sorts of approaches that I've seen in commercial usage, but (before I open my big mouth) would like to hear whether their failure to offer me reasonable suggestions is just 'cause I'm some kinda freak, or in fact representitive of the rest of the system.
-me
Re:Passport Good, but not by MS (Score:1)
>>But this is a function for a non-profit org . There is no
>>bloody way I will give that info to MS or it's ilk.
>>They simply cannot be trusted for the full term, whatever promises they will make today.
The only problem is...How will you know when any company on the internet isn't sending the data you gave them to Microshaft (oops I mean Microsoft)!!!!!! Keep that in mind. If Microsoft has all that data, be careful
-JM-
What's wrong with Firefly/CDNOW/Amazon (Score:1)
I think they're using some kind of neural networks to boil down a large ammount of data into a small number of recommendations. Neural nets are notorious for being sneaky - if there's a way of coming up with a clever yet still useles solution, it's a good chance that a neural net will find it. (A real person wouldn't think of it because it's useless (there ARE real people who are not detered by this fact)) Here they learned that they can 'cheat' by recommending the most popular music - if everybody else likes X and I like Y, It's better just to recommend X than using its limited capacity to discern what Y' is.
This is compounded with the problem that if people aren't familliar with a recommended CD or book they're likely to just skip it and leave it unrated rather than shelling out $15+ to see if CDNOW's AI is any good, so massively popular items are the only things it even has a significant data set for. Suddenly it's not worth my bother - If I want to hear massively popular music, I'll turn on the radio or emptyV or whatever, rather than ask some stupid program what IT thinks I'll like.
To its credit Firefly USED to be able to understand that I wasn't so big on stuff that was too full of guitars (though it forgot this as more data and more noise was added).
It's a difficult problem - I don't necessarily want its recommendations to be similar to what I already said I like, just to be more stuff I like. In fact, if it's too similar I won't buy it unless I'm a collector or reviewer. (How many SQL books does one person need? I may like Bjork, but do I need all her singles and japanese import versions with one extra track? maybe not..)
It'll be a while until somebody gets this problem solved.
-me
Freudian slip? (Score:1)
> any constructive suggestions from Firefly
> community members.
> "When they provide us with some actionable
> suggestions, we will be looking into them,"
> Miller said.
I guess Microsoft is getting used to the process that gets them into court.
Re:World Domination through Monopolistic Acquisiti (Score:1)
Re:At least Microsoft paid before destroying... (Score:1)
(And it sure would be nice if the boundaries of fair use were outlined for audio samples as well as it is for literary quotes and for fragments of sheet music... but for that to happen, the big guys would have to admit that they don't absolutely control every last little bit of every byte in existance, and in the meantime you can make money selling "sample rights" to the timid &/or the ignorant with too much money on their hands.)
Generic mid-August '99 Slashdot post (Score:1)
So, when's the IPO?
Mmmmmm.... Beowulf.
I haven't read the article yet, but here's my opinion on gun control
Gang, let's get the SEC involved. There's strength in numbers.
*sigh* (Score:1)
first post?
it could happen to you... (Score:1)
In a move that will not be noticed by, and that is unlikely to cause a stir among the placated office workers who used to be geeks of the late 90s, Microsoft closed community site Slashdot.org today in preparation for the opening of its new side Backslash-tilde-one.com.
Microsoft took over the Linux community site (which pioneered the weblog styled news site) in 2000, after winning a court case against the Free Software Foundation regarding its proprietary Linux distribution (Winux NT) and GNU Public License.
The former owners of Slashdot.org were not available for comments, and have not been spotted publicly since attending a Mircrosoft re-education program at Redmond campus shortly after the takeover.
It's a shame to see them go. (Score:1)
Firefly had a great company culture - games, dogs, and a bunch of bright people doing cool things.
I remember hearing about it when Microsoft first noticed them. A project manager at FF told me that they weren't worried about being absorbed, because Microsoft's market studies said that people were wary of Microsoft having personal data on them. I guess he was wrong.
Microsoft works it for the pr0n industry (Score:1)
Entirely off-topic (Score:1)
Before you waste a moderation point on this, use one to moderate up the haircut price post.
Re:First! (Score:1)
Passport Good, but not by MS (Score:1)
Hah! (Score:1)
"I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks! Mwuahahahaha!"
-Bill Gates (The Simpsons)
---
Re:Does this worry the crap out of me? (Score:1)
If you're "about to have a serious look at RH6 & Metroworks" you should be warned that the "trade show types" are crawling all over it right now.
Let not the veil of nostalgia taint Fly's passing. (Score:1)
When Microsoft shuts down Firefly.com next week, it will mean the end of one of the Net's oldest and most historically significant communities.
The article then goes on to mention that Firefly started in 1996. This makes it one of the "oldest and most historically significant"?!
Must've been a newbie reporter trying to put things into perspective. One of the oldest? Don't even get me started -- on laUNChpad, nyx and the Well and echo and the ISCABBS and Quartz Paradise, even. Some are still around and struggling; others are long gone. Hell, even Wired's own little computer-klatsch commune is older than Firefly. And historically significant? Um. Other than the fact that Firefly seemed to be the first recommendation agent that made it "big".
Remember when personalized agents were gonna be the Next Really Big Thing? We'd turn our computer on in the morning and our agents, usually in the form of a cute cartoon dog or something, would report back to us that our plane tickets had been reserved, the cab to the airport booked, and here is the weather in Albuquerque today.
Agents might not be so personal now, granted, but they do work in their mysterious ways. amazon.com tracks my orders for me via email. I get weekly listings of "cyberfares" custom-picked for destinations I frequent, and I've tried eBay once or twice. Perhaps we owe a bit of credit to Firefly for taking us down the personalized info route, but I'm not going to laud it as one of the defining concepts behind the Internet As We Know It Today.
Personalized recommendation services are a strange breed, anyhow. I echo the sentiments of several folks who've already mentioned that it took Firefly entirely too long to return the simple message that I should be interested in bands I already liked. amazon's recommendation service is entirely way too obvious or inexplicably false and motivated by items Amazon wants to push. How else can I explain their insistence that, among recommendations for Mel Brooks movies and Terry Pratchett novels and MST3K episodes and Beautiful South albums (the kinds of which I've purchased from Amazon in the past) that I'd "really like" the Tony Blanks Tae-Bo tape?! (Maybe it's a subtle hint from Amazon considering I've bought lots of videos from them?)
I see I'm losing track of the main point here. It sure is sad to see a 3-year-old Internet company go (especially when, yes, it has been around longer than many) but we can't let the fact that their sad decline and their entrails being feasted upon by Shub-Microsoft make us believe Firefly was something greater than it was.
If anything, Firefly and SixDegrees (which debuted at roughly the same time, IIRC) seemed nothing more to me than an attempt to get personal marketing information out of me in exchange for something they promised was "really really cool", yet never seemed to be. It shall be missed, but not in a sniffly "It was soooooo visionary" mindset. Not from me, at least. Sorry.
Hmmm... (Score:1)
Does this worry the crap out of me? (Score:1)
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something Microsoft is going to want to take from you"
The facts run as thus: I love making great bits of technology. Some people love plugging them together and think that's the same thing, but it's not. I love making things. I don't particularly like business, I really don't like marketing and I really really don't like crap like trade shows, or having to get sales reps together, or any of that.
So, if I make something worthwhile, "Tasty" for want of a better word, get it up and going in a basic form and make sure Microsoft know about it, are they going to arrive with an extra long cheque book (to take all those zeroes) and put their almightily big marketing department on to it because they have to make it sell.
Or have firefly just proven that Microsoft are happy to buy something purely to stop anyone else from having it?
Hmmmm.
BTW, offtopic - I'm an NT developer about to have a serious look at RH6 & Metroworks. I think you're winning.
Dave
this is not a troll -- (Score:1)
Re:this is not a troll -- (Score:1)
However the article mentions that it was a popular community with over 400 people "on the fly" [give me a break] at one time. Building an online community isn't easy...and for every Firefly/Slashdot/Well that exists, there are hundreds, or even thousands that fail. So they must have done something right.
Firefly = lame (Score:1)
by Philip Greenspun, Chapter 9 of Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing [photo.net]
(... And if you all had any sense you quit reading this slashdot crap until you'd finished reading this book. It's all available on-line, but it's definitely worth buying a hardcopy of it.)
Anyway, as for Firefly... everyone I know thought it was ridiculous. They played with it in the same way people play with bablefish [altavista.com], just to laugh at how stupid the results were. Microsoft bought it? Cool... I hope they buy lots of other useless companies. They shut it down? Too bad, it would be better if they wasted more money on it. Maybe passport will help burn some of their cash.
EXTRA EXTRA!!! (Score:1)
In a transaction of undisclosed amount, Microsoft Corporation (MSFT)has bought the U.S. Department of Justice.
Microsoft officials promised that the deal would be transparent to U.S. citizens, and that it was not part of a total world-domination scheme.
In other news, Microsoft Corporation (MSFT)bought the country of Mexico for a sum of 900 US B$ and stock options. Immediately after the signing of the contracts, Mexico was renamed to Microsofto, and citizen became Microsoftan. Microsoft has been on a streak of land-acquisition, buying Australia, New Zealand, South-Africa, Russia and Mexico.
Government officials are starting to worry that Microsoft Corporation may be up to something.
More news at 6.
Sun Tzu must have been running Linux...
- Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him. (Sun Tzu, The art of war)
World Domination through Monopolistic Acquisition (Score:1)
Pre-Passport Firefly was cool (Score:1)
Re:World Domination through Monopolistic Acquisiti (Score:1)
This is just the first step into dominating an entirely new market. Banks have known for some time that MS has been maneuvering to put itself into the position of controlling (or should I say facillitating?) all online transactions. There _will_ be a huge profit in this eventually. If they become entrenched enough, they'll make sure there are two protocols for online transactions. Theirs and an "unsafe" one (this won't be true, but it'll be what they are telling your bosses.) At some point we will become dependant on them for everything from TV's to toasters.
It's only when we combine them collecting personal information and unique hardware ID's that we can truly be scared.
Ooops! Twas 97, not 96! (Score:1)
Re:it could happen to you... (Score:1)