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For those wondering what all the medieval hoopla is about

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  • ...the equivalence of their evil is predicated on viewing the avoidance of procreation as evil. If so, when does it become not evil? After a certain age? After a certain number of (living) children? At what point have we as human beings fulfilled God's directive to "be fruitful and multiply and fill/replenish the earth"? 8 billion? Ever?

    • The idea is that God is the one who should choose this, not man. That we should not avoid procreation *ever*. That the real feedback systems to prevent infinite human expansion are already built into our environment, and that we need to trust God more and man less.

      Give God the power of life and death, and trust God to handle that power.

      Oddly enough- it is kind of like the ideal relationship between the government and the free market- the system works best when the government doesn't pick winners and loser

      • Wow, you've said some things there that I thought I'd never see from you. Like "trust God more and man less". I thought you'd never budge on believing in man, and his being able to successfully control all kinds of evils and potentially undesirable outcomes.

        I agree on not being wise enough to choose which of our children is to be allowed to live -- abortion. But I don't think the similarity is close enough to extend that to procreation avoidance. E.g. that's not exactly the deciding that all of the children

        • The real point, in EV Section 13 anyway, is more that contraception is having your cake and eating it too, but because contraception is imperfect- in almost every method known save sterilization- it's failure *WILL* lead to unwanted pregnancies (the failure rate of the pill is 8%! Condoms are 3% when used properly, 15% overall failure rate because we trust idiot teenagers to know how to use them!). And unwanted pregnancies, lead to abortions because the attitude of "I don't want children even if God gives

          • Even if I'm against a program, I at least want to recoup my forced investment in it. And things are only a blessing to people who see it that way. And having kids is a crapshoot -- they may turn out to be the kind of people who will refuse to help you in your old age (like my sister is saying she is).

            But I get your point that contraception permits people to engage in sex when they absolutely do not want to make a baby, and therefore is responsible for prolly most of the abortions (when it fails). But there'

Waste not, get your budget cut next year.

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