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Journal Marxist Hacker 42's Journal: Theology: Guilt and Forgiveness-I dare you to firestorm it! 23

Journal by Marxist Hacker 42
There's no icon for religion and theology. This is mainly to continue a discussion from somebody else's journal that has gone on far longer than the original journal, and has drifted. It's also partially to clarify a meaning that I recently found out that I (gasp!) use different than the rest of America.

My brother was recently talking to one of our non-Catholic relatives by marriage- an atheist actually, but a very philosophical one. My brother said that he was using a different definition of guilt than I grew up with. Apparently due to a quirk of American law, many people think that guilt cannot be redeemed. Forgiveness isn't a concept in American law, only pennance WITHOUT forgiveness- once you've been found guilty of a crime, you will ALWAYS be guilty of that crime, regardless of temporal punishment served.

This is at odds with what I grew up with: Guilt was always temporary for me growing up. Sure, sometimes forgiveness required punishment and pennance to achieve, but the whole idea of the pennance was achieving the forgiveness and healing the relationship.

It occurs to me that a lot of the problems I have with justice in this society is that the punishments for crime don't do anything to heal the relationship between criminal and victim. Kind of like the major complaint against communism (that the States steps in and takes ownership away from the individual) that's the problem I see in our "criminal justice system"- that the State steps in with the role of the District Attorney and takes away the victimhood of the true victim- thus severing the relationship between criminal and victim instead of healing and normalizing the relationship.

I also suspect greatly that this is a part of why some fundamentalist churches reject the concept of the Communion of Saints- to them, sin is a private guilt, between them and God, and largely unforgiveable, thus creating a need for the "Once Saved, Always Saved" scam, a single point of salvation to alleviate guilt that would otherwise just keep building forever until it crushes the individual involved.

Of course, Catholics have the Sacrament of Reconciliation instead- going to a priest for temporal punishment (pennance) and advice on how to heal not just the relationship between sinner and God, but also the human relationships that might have been damaged.----

While looking up the spelling on Google of the word scruplosity for a post below, I came across this rather good article for those unfamiliar with the Sacrament of Reconciliation- a unique point of view from a blogging priest (NO, he didn't violate the seal of the confessional, but he does talk about advice and pennance from a priest's perspective).
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Theology: Guilt and Forgiveness-I dare you to firestorm it! More

Theology: Guilt and Forgiveness-I dare you to firestorm it!

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  • Guilt is an event of wrongdoing, as well as a feeling by the wrongdoer for doing it, not a feeling by the wrongdoee. Guilt doesn't vanish when the wrongdoee forgives the wrongdoer. The feeling of guilt by the wrongdoer may go away, but the event cannot be "not done" (barring invention of a time machine).

    On your attack on non-Catholics, I don't follow exactly what you're saying, since it's expressed in terms of Catholicism, and I'm not that knowledgeable about it, but restraint against creating strife amongs
    • Guilt is an event of wrongdoing, as well as a feeling by the wrongdoer for doing it, not a feeling by the wrongdoee. Guilt doesn't vanish when the wrongdoee forgives the wrongdoer. The feeling of guilt by the wrongdoer may go away, but the event cannot be "not done" (barring invention of a time machine).

      Ah, but you see, that's exactly what the Sacrament of Reconciliation is *supposed* to be, in a way- a time machine that undoes the mistakes of the past, and erases your eternal guilt for the event (tempora
      • You referred to a "scam". I understand there are plenty of things that non-Catholic Christians find in Catholicism to be extra-Biblical, and I probably would agree, but I object to those that refer to Catholicism as a "cult". Fellow believers in Christ are my brothers, and I won't besmirch them by implying that their interpretations of the Bible on secondary issues is really just a "scam" invented to work around their stupidly painting themselves into a wrongheaded corner.
        • You referred to a "scam". I understand there are plenty of things that non-Catholic Christians find in Catholicism to be extra-Biblical, and I probably would agree, but I object to those that refer to Catholicism as a "cult". Fellow believers in Christ are my brothers, and I won't besmirch them by implying that their interpretations of the Bible on secondary issues is really just a "scam" invented to work around their stupidly painting themselves into a wrongheaded corner.

          Catholicism is a bit old to be re
          • I agree with you on those who preach the "Health and Wealth gospel". There's a mega-church (more like a stadium) show on late at night with a Joel Osteen or somesuch dude, who I've watched a bit on occasion, and he never talks about God wanting a close personal relationship with us, but only of God fulfilling all our worldly desires.

            But that doesn't have anything to do with the "Once Saved, Always Saved" doctrine. Any more than a bunch of sicko molesting Catholic priests means Catholicism is evil. The minor
            • I agree with you on those who preach the "Health and Wealth gospel". There's a mega-church (more like a stadium) show on late at night with a Joel Osteen or somesuch dude, who I've watched a bit on occasion, and he never talks about God wanting a close personal relationship with us, but only of God fulfilling all our worldly desires.

              My wife's sister goes to one- Portland City Bible- that grew so large they had to open a second branch across town- and put the preacher on big screen TVs and IPTV broadcast b
              • I've only heard it in combination before....Can you give me an example?

                I dunno, how about every Bible-based Christian church around? I grew up as a Lutheran, and have been to several of those, and now (prefer to) attend a certain non-denominational church, and they've all taught being saved as an event, not an ongoing process, and they've never taught that it's about gaining worldly things. That's pretty sad assuming that something is only as how you see it on TV. There's a whole multitude of good churches
                • I dunno, how about every Bible-based Christian church around? I grew up as a Lutheran, and have been to several of those, and now (prefer to) attend a certain non-denominational church, and they've all taught being saved as an event, not an ongoing process, and they've never taught that it's about gaining worldly things. That's pretty sad assuming that something is only as how you see it on TV. There's a whole multitude of good churches and faithful people out there. Despite a few headline-grabbing bad ones
                  • Being saved means you're definately going to heaven no matter what else you have done.

                    Or may do. From John 10 [biblegateway.com]:
                    "27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
                    Once saved, always saved.

                    ...you're presuming that God's going to forgive no matter what.

                    You may subscribe to a larger effective distinction between forgiveness and salvation than I do. I'm not crystal clear on non-Cat
                    • And yet the Epistle of James counters with the idea that not by faith alone are we saved, but by every good work- without the justification of works, your faith in John 10:28 is the faith of the dead.

                      However, having said that:
                      We don't believe in Limbo or Purgatory or whatever, but I think I've heard that we'll have to answer for our sins on Judgment Day. But I interpret that as having to give account of everything we've done wrong, not just the things we forgot to ask forgiveness for. I.e. even if I could
                    • Re: Judgment Day, I should add that I don't believe it's a process, but rather an instant. Not a place or condition I'll be in for a while, depending on how sinful a life I've lived. Afterall when asked for explanation for my behavior, what could I possibly say? I'll be so ashamed in His presence I won't say anything, and will just humble myself before Him. A second later Jesus will intercede on my behalf, and say He recognizes me and that I'm one of His.

                      Finally, IANABiblicalScholar, but while "24 You see t [biblegateway.com]
                    • Re: Judgment Day, I should add that I don't believe it's a process, but rather an instant. Not a place or condition I'll be in for a while, depending on how sinful a life I've lived.

                      Well, neither is purgatory per se- it just FEELS like that....due to:

                      Afterall when asked for explanation for my behavior, what could I possibly say? I'll be so ashamed in His presence I won't say anything, and will just humble myself before Him.

                      That is the process Catholics refer to as purgatory- and the worse you've done-
                    • That is the process Catholics refer to as purgatory...

                      I think the issue is then that non-Catholics don't believe, don't see any reason to believe, that it's a "process". (Nor requiring anyone to pray for us during it, if that's the teaching.) For a nanosecond event, it strikes non-Catholics as odd that it's thought to warrant its own name, and an official place in doctrine. Many things seem like side issues that receive undue emphasis in Catholicism, to non-Catholics. I'm not saying you're wrong, or wish to
                    • On purgatory- our way of reading scriptures demands it [ekklesia.co.uk].

                      But your other point is more interesting.

                      That last paragraph has a lot of things going on it, some of which I think I might've talked about before. I think you beat yourself up too much, and try to carry too much of the burden of the world's wrongdoings. My faith tells me that that's totally unnecessary. I hope you find peace soon.

                      If consumers don't take control of refusing to deal with businesses that break Matthew 26- who will? How will this evi
                    • Re: purgatory: While I saw in only one of those passages something pointing to a Purgatory, it did lead to an interesting mini-journey. I have two study Bibles, containing commentary on two mainstream (for middle-of-the-road to conservative Protestants?) translations. They both indicated that the judgment was not for our sins. For that matter has already been settled. (Thank God! :-) They said that it refers to what we've done with our lives as Christians. Interesting food for thought, and worthy of future
  • guilt and forgiveness, light and dark, yin and yang, neither could exist without the other and both are entirely healthy and appropriate in moderation.

    my personal belief is that God's forgiveness is infinite. though i am technically a unitarian universalist, i feel a much closer affinity to the universalist side of my religious heritage than the unitarian one.
    • It never occured to me before what the universalist unitarians were about. Yes, God's forgiveness is infinite- but look at what the priest I linked to in the edit said. Our capacity to accept forgiveness is not nearly as infinite as his capacity to give it....
  • One possibility here is that the doctrines of soteriology and sin have been confused.
    What does it mean to be "saved"? I like Tillich's formulation, not to go quoting too much outside the Bible itself (the ice is thin): Mankind is existentially estranged from the essential goodness of creation in God's image.
    Salvation overcomes the estrangement brought on by Adam's Fall. Does salvation make anyone incapable of sin? No. Is there an Undo command associated with salvation? No. As the Galatian epistle p
    • That fellow in Lancaster Pennsylvania who shot the girls recently. Wow. I told the youth group point blank: if you've sinned, you have got to confess it to God and be healed. Examples of festering sins that destroy the mind just don't get more graphic than that tragedy.

      I'm rather short on the details of his case- but I do understand that it had nothing to do with the girls religion or even who they were- gender only...

      I'll accept a dichotomy here: what you do within the church (Matt 18) is not necessari
    • One possibility here is that the doctrines of soteriology and sin have been confused. What does it mean to be "saved"? I like Tillich's formulation, not to go quoting too much outside the Bible itself (the ice is thin): Mankind is existentially estranged from the essential goodness of creation in God's image. Salvation overcomes the estrangement brought on by Adam's Fall. Does salvation make anyone incapable of sin? No. Is there an Undo command associated with salvation? No. As the Galatian epistle points o

      • For us, salvation isn't a single point- we're on a path towards salvation

        No, but the path begins at some point, right? Otherwise, it would have been pointless, no? I don't think salvation pointless except in the case of fraud. It is a personal, sincere moment of rebirth. No amount of external effort will avail--see Job40:6-14 for a mocking treatment of human effort. You can no more un-save yourself than you can save yourself in the first place, though I'll admit that you can render the act rather valu

        • No, but the path begins at some point, right? Otherwise, it would have been pointless, no?

          Interesting play on words. Yes- but we don't choose our begining or our ending to the path- God controls that.

          I don't think salvation pointless except in the case of fraud.

          Which is what I was talking about, BTW...I was unaware that anybody actually believed in a single point of salvation with no growth afterwards WITHOUT it being a fraud.

          It is a personal, sincere moment of rebirth. No amount of external effor

          • We have many moments of rebirth in Catholicism- the last one being death itself!

            I'm unaware of any evidence of multiple rebirth in the Bible.
            In my own walk with Christ, there have been two distinct phases. I was saved just short of my 11th birthday, baptized in the Biblical manner, and had a faith that was young, literal, and not too sophisticated. After a couple of late-teen years of wandering, God surrounded me with a variety of very faithful men who challenged me on so many levels (looking back, I wa

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