pudge's Journal: What's the Matter with Liberals?

The author of "What's the Matter with Kansas?," Thomas Frank, was on The Daily Show last night.

He's pretty dumb.

He thinks he knows what your interests are, and how you should vote, and that if you disagree, you're simply wrong.

Yes really. Hey, I tried to warn you. OK, it's not like he has no points, but it all boils down to the depraved notion that he is more right about how you should vote than you are.

He doesn't like to tell you this though. He tries to hide his elitism. But he was confronted by David Frum on NewsHour, who said:

Every person is the world's leading expert on what he or she feels and believes. And I don't think you ever want to tell people that they are mistaken about how, what their beliefs are and how they express them.

Frank replied:

We don't live in a world where everyone's interests are perfectly crystal clear all the time. People get things wrong all the time. I know I do.

Oh, but he is more likely to be right about your interests than you? Like I said: he's pretty dumb.

I thought Stewart handled him very well

[buffer-overflowed]

actually.

Hmmm....

[berniecase]

Your interpretation of his elitism seems more a matter of open-mindedness to me. When he says that, "we don't live in a world where everyone's interests are perfectly crystal clear all the time," I find some truth in that. For example, you may think some tax cut you're getting is excellent for you. But is it good for society? Is a political decision you make now going to hurt others in the future?

It's true, people do get things wrong all the time. They just are too stubborn to realize it. Nobody like

Re:Hmmm....

[berniecase]

Ugh, replying to my own comment because of poor grammar:

It certainly gave new perspective on Kansas, especially to someone who like me who lives on the left coast.

Re:Hmmm....

[pudge]

I find some truth in that.

So? What makes him think he is right in this case, especially considering the majority of millions of people disagree with him, and they are in a much better position to know than he is?

For example, you may think some tax cut you're getting is excellent for you. But is it good for society? Is a political decision you make now going to hurt others in the future?

No, that's backward from what he is saying. He is saying they are not considering what is best for themselves.

In f

Re:Hmmm....

[pudge]

The United States Dollar has been declining for past couple of years, with bankruptcies up, the number of people living in poverty up, and the median real income down.

I was speaking in terms of who people vote for, and not one of those things is a new problem in the last four years, except for real income, but that's an illusion: if you factor out oil, real wages are up, and there's no reason to think that this short term spike in oil prices won't result in an eventual increase in wages to compensate.

Whe

Re:Hmmm....

[pudge]

Why do you think the price of oil will not continue to increase?

If you read my whole comment, you would know I didn't imply that, as I talked about wages increasing over the long term to meet inflation.

I was referring to the fact that oil has only spiked in the last several months (starting in the spring), and that you cannot expect wages to react that quickly.

Re:Hmmm....

[helix400]

The United States Dollar has been declining for past couple of years,

This is a planned tactic. A lower dollar means our goods sell cheaper overseas, making our economy stronger. On the other hand, other countries are complaining that their currency is now too strong.

with bankruptcies up, the number of people living in poverty up, and the median real income down.

We just had a long drawn out economic slump.

Do you know something about the expected petroleum price shock that the rest of us don

Re:Greenspan

[pudge]

OK, Chicken Little.

Re:Hmmm....

[buffer-overflowed]

A low dollar only helps our economy if we can turn our trade deficit into a trade surplus because of it. Which we haven't yet(no movement at all). Which in turn means if one of these situations doesn't start to reverse itself(trade deficit or low dollar) our economy will get worse... not better. Money and thus resources flow out of us into other nations... We're not self-contained.

We'll see if there's any movement in the trade deficit beggining of next quarter. I doubt there will be(there hasn't been y

Big in Japan

[bettiwettiwoo]

It would also appear Frank fails to distinguish between long- and short-term benefits.

In the 1980s there was a whole host of frightfully clever people, Lester Thurow, Chalmers Johnson, David Halberstam to name but a few, who were frightfully worried by America's (ostensive) falling behind Japan in economic terms.

Almost to a man (they were mostly men), they recommended the US ditch is free economy, its anti-trust laws and adopt a Japanese style of industrial policy and planned economic development. They ra

Re:Hmmm....

[jdavidb]

For example, you may think some tax cut you're getting is excellent for you. But is it good for society?

Make no mistake: as a conservative and a libertarian, I want tax cuts not because they are good for me, but because (I believe) they are good for society. If you thought otherwise, you missed why I wanted tax cuts.

Speaking of condescending liberals...

[helix400]

Ted Rall's attitude got him fired from the Washington Post today. He wasn't too happy about it [editorandpublisher.com].

I'll answer that.

[Zeriel]

Nothing's the matter with liberals.

What's the matter with Democrats? They think they're "liberals" in any kind of sense other than historical.

Re:I'll answer that.

[robi2106]

Ahhhh good distinction. In the same way.... I am a conservative but a libertarian and not so much a hardline Republican. I am not a big fan of the big federal gov plans and deficit spending. But both major parties spend in excess. Only when the two parties were working in oposition (Clinton vs Congress) was the budget constructively managed. Though in all fairness, Bill did his best to avoid any foreign messes, where as Bush had no choice but to inherit the problems caused by all previous administratio

I'm not sure..

[SimianOverlord]

having not seen the whole conversation, but isn't there some truth in what he was saying?

Haven't recent surveys shown that people are simply wrong on some aspects of say, Iraqs links to Al Quaeda? Is it elitist to point out the reality of the situation?

On reflection..

[SimianOverlord]

although "Iraq's links to Al Queda" was my original example (of a widely held falsehood), I think "Bush's tax cuts" is an example less likely to muddy the issue. Economic matters are complex; people are more likely to believe a pundit they trust than look into the matter themselves. If disinformation is being spread, I do not believe it elitist to tell people so, even if they are dogmatic in their beliefs.

On a side note, I recognised David Frum from an election special question time panel show I saw aired

Re:On reflection..

[pudge]

although "Iraq's links to Al Queda" was my original example (of a widely held falsehood), I think "Bush's tax cuts" is an example less likely to muddy the issue.

Are you saying Bush didn't cut taxes? I hope not, because that would be crazy talk.

Regardless, this is all beside any point I am making. Look at what Frum said, what Frank replied to. They were not talking there about facts, they were talking about values: what is most important to me, what I most value, how I feel. Frank says that if you dis