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Journal pudge's Journal: More on 527s and Coordination 33

Journal by pudge

CaptTofu sent me this great link detailing some of the links between Kerry and 527s (news to me: Ickes, head of Media Fund, is also on the DNC board). Some of the links there are IMO rather silly, but there it is.

Now, to be clear: none of this is evidence of coordination, just as none of the links with Bush are such. What it shows is not that Kerry is doing anything illegal, but that -- as I said in the other journal entry -- Kerry is a hypocrite when he attacks Bush's links to SBVT. Kerry's links are as strong or stronger than the ones Bush has to SBVT, and much more significant, given the much greater amount of money involved.

This discussion was created by pudge (3605) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

More on 527s and Coordination More

More on 527s and Coordination

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  • Two Bush advisors have resigned after having been exposed for SBVT participation; no Democrats have resigned due to analogous conflicts.

    At least four SBVTers have been exposed as liars (or at least in stark contradiction with earlier documentation or recordings.) The doctor who claims he treated Kerry for a wound documented as having been treated by someone else. The guy who claims Kerry wasn't being shot at when both of their bronze star citations and everyone else who was there say they were. O'Niell

    • So because they have not resigned, that means it is not as significant? Are you kidding me? That's closer to an admission of guilt than an argument against it!

      As to burying anything, it's Kerry who's been keeping this discussion alive. It's he who filed the FEC complaint, it's he and Edwards who have given speeches about it, it's their campaign who made an ad about it, it's their friend (Cleland) who wrote a letter about it. What has the Bush campaign done, but deny involvement? Your cries about buryi
      • Why are the specific claims entirely off-topic?

        I think they're rather important because the content matters. Allying oneself closely to a 527 that doesn't fabricate lies (even if they are propagandist) is fine, but being allied with a 527 that DOES fabricate slanderous lies (it is being argued) *IS SIGNIFICANT* no matter that he's _slighly less_ closely allied.

        Why does the "level of closeness" matter more than contents, or rather hows is it that the contents are off-topic?
        • Why are the specific claims entirely off-topic? I think they're rather important because the content matters. Allying oneself closely to a 527 that doesn't fabricate lies (even if they are propagandist) is fine, but being allied with a 527 that DOES fabricate slanderous lies (it is being argued) *IS SIGNIFICANT* no matter that he's _slighly less_ closely allied.

          No, because I have been talking about what the Kerry campaign has been primarily talking about, the issue they raised when they filed their FEC c

          • I have been talking about what the Kerry campaign has been primarily talking about, the issue they raised when they filed their FEC complaint: illegal coordination under the McCain-Feingold law. That is irrespective of the specifics.

            Here is a list of the Republican 527s with documented coordination (in the general sense of the word; I realize that the legal definition of coordination is technical and interpreted largely at the discretion of the FEC) with the Bush campaign:

            1. National Federation of Republi
            • the question becomes: Why did Kerry choose to file a FEC complaint against SBVT but none of the other ... 527s?

              Because they haven't hurt him. As noted, they've only spent a tiny fraction of the money the pro-Kerry 527s have spent. So too have the SBVT, but they actually got press, and started to hurt Kerry. So he filed the complaint, knowing that many people will be duped into believing that an accusation of wrongdoing is evidence of wrongdoing. He also knows that most people will conflate the issue o

      • So because they have not resigned, that means it is not as significant?

        Are saying that the Bush campaign workers who have had to resign due to their SBVT involvement are thereby less significant than Democrats who haven't had to resign because of their 527 involvements?

        Your comments about the specific claims of the SBVT are entirely off-topic

        The problems with SBVT coordination, as opposed to, for example, the Bushes coordination with the 527 that puts out Republican Woman magazine, have to do preci

        • Are saying that the Bush campaign workers who have had to resign due to their SBVT involvement are thereby less significant than Democrats who haven't had to resign because of their 527 involvements?

          I am saying that it is clearly not significant evidence either way. How could it be? People resign all the time because things look bad, even if they are not. That's clearly the case here, as there is not one jot of evidence of coordination.

          That's the reason that the SBVT are considered such a smear and t
        • ...have to do precicely with the fact that they've been caught in at least nine distinct lies and misleading statements [dailykos.com] about a veteran candidate's war record.

          Hold on a second. So, having someone making contrary assertions to someone else's statements is now "distinct lies"? OK, so, given that the Kerry campaign has essentially conceded that on both the Cambodia story and the nature of the first Purple Heart, the SBVT account is correct and Kerry's was wrong, how exactly would you characteri

    • Is insurance some sort of right? Some sort of fundamental state of being that is sacred, like being able to speak your mind?

      NO!!!

      It is a luxury. I happen to be able to afford some minimal insurance (USD $3000 yearly deductable) and am glad for it. But I am insured ONLY because I place insurance as a higher priority than getting drunk off my ass on weekends like many of the other hourly wage earning citizens I live / work with.

      If insurance and responsibility was a priority for people, then alcohol and
      • Uh ... what? Was this supposed to be on some other journal entry?
        • No, this was the Journal for it. It is a rant in reply to piano's post; about how the gov can't fix the uninsured issue if people don't have their priorities set to even value insurance (unles they go universal insurance I suppose).

          Sorry for the confusion.

          jason
          • Yes, but he didn't talk about insurance in this journal entry, that was a completely different discussion.
            • But still, this is all serving an important Bush campaign function. It's burying this:

              The number of Americans living in poverty increased by 1.3 million last year, while the ranks of the uninsured swelled by 1.4 million, the Census Bureau reported Thursday.

              It was the third straight annual increase for both categories.

              I hope we can get back to the issues soon.

              He did, but in a small mention down in the last few lines of the post. I did not notice a specific Journal related to this topic (I hav
            • Yes, but he didn't talk about insurance in this journal entry, that was a completely different discussion.

              No, he was complaining in his first post about the number of uninsured increasing:

              But still, this is all serving an important Bush campaign function. It's burying this:

              The number of Americans living in poverty increased by 1.3 million last year, while the ranks of the uninsured swelled by 1.4 million, the Census Bureau reported Thursday.

              Considering that for most of America's existence virtually

        • Was this supposed to be on some other journal entry?
          It should have been on a journal entry of someone who wasn't claiming Kerry is responsible for the SBVT coordination topic burying other issues.
      • way to project and over-generalize. Obviously every poor person is poor because they are drunken bastards.

        Way to have a heart, man.
        • My comment said nothing to that effect, that poor people were poor because they were drunken idiots. What I did say was that people complaining about not having insurance but spending like a sailor on leave have no one to blame but themself.

          jason
    • You know the number of homeowners and small business owners increased too.
      And you also know what Mark Twain said about "lie, damn lies and statistics", don't you?

      It would be great to get back to the issues...
      Like how Kerry is going to help the economy by raising taxes.
      Or lower gas prices by raises taxes on it.

      Would love to see some more of that substance.
      • It would be great to get back to the issues...
        Like how Kerry is going to help the economy by raising taxes.

        Yes, his plan there is quite confusing. He wants to raise taxes on incomes over $200K, and lower corporate taxes. Supposedly, he wants to lower the deficit by increasing revenues, but he also wants to significantly increase spending, and he says the additional revenues will come from the tax increase (but how much will it be offset by the tax cut?), and improved economic activity that will increase

  • none of this is evidence of coordination, just as none of the links with Bush are such

    A Bush campaign lawyer advised a 527 on an advertisement. This much is admitted already. And the standard for coordination is met when there is any advertisement that is "the result of material involvement of a candidate or campaign in decisions on the content, intended audience, distribution plans, timing or media used."

    That same lawyer, in admitting his involvement with the 527 and stepping down, also issued a stat

    • A Bush campaign lawyer advised a 527 on an advertisement. This much is admitted already.

      That is false. He advised them on election law. No one admitted he advised them on an advertisement. You're just making that up.

      And the standard for coordination is met when there is any advertisement that is "the result of material involvement of a candidate or campaign in decisions on the content, intended audience, distribution plans, timing or media used."

      There is no evidence his advice was related in any wa
      • He advised them on election law

        You are correct, my mistake.

        I was actually going to close the window and not bother posting, but I hit return by accident. Oh well. Maybe we should make the default action Preview, instead of Submit.

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