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Journal pudge's Journal: To Be or Not To Be 29

Journal by pudge

Should that Crips guy die?

I dunno. I was not in the court, I don't know the case well, and I can't even remember his name.

But there is one thing I do know: whether he is a changed man is completely irrelevant to whether he should be put to death. You don't punish people for what they are now, you punish them for what they did at the time.

Jamie Foxx, who seems a very nice, smart, and sensible man, defended the Crips guy, saying that he writes stories for kids, showing them that if they go down the path he did, they could end up like he did.

I am not a big fan of the death penalty -- it's one of the few issues I really have no strong opinion of -- but I can think of no stronger message to give to those kids Foxx speaks of then to end the story with a lethal injection.

This discussion was created by pudge (3605) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

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To Be or Not To Be

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  • The message kids and criminals both get from Tookie's death is that rehabilitation and redemption have no place in prisons. For kids to get the message about how to avoid gangs and why they should, someone needs to send them said message. That was what Tookie was doing. He had more to write down, and had works in progress when he was executed. He would have settled for life in prison without parole so he could keep writing.
    • Aah, and isn't that just the story of Les Miserables!

      Jean Valjean had a complete 100% rehabilitation (no thanks to the government and its prison system - it came at the hands of a priest), and yet the government, in the form of Javert, continued to hound him to the very end, believing that once a criminal always a criminal.

      Javert did not believe rehabilitation was possible. Thus finally he was forced to commit suicide when he could no longer hide the fact from himself that it was.
    • The message isn't that rehabilitation and redemption have no place in prison. It is that even if those happen it won't get you off death row.

      Given that he has never admitted to the crime (maybe he didn't do it, I don't know the details of the case) and that he never gave up any information on his former associates, I don't see how he can demonstrate to the state that he was rehabilitated.

      What I read yesterday was that he wasn't asking for life in prison but for release given that he was claiming innocence.
      • Given that he has never admitted to the crime (maybe he didn't do it, I don't know the details of the case)

        That would be rather inconsistent with his subsequent bragging about the gurgling noise one of his victims made as he lay there dying...

        that he never gave up any information on his former associates, I don't see how he can demonstrate to the state that he was rehabilitated.

        That's my take, too. He didn't undergo some Damascene conversion to become the second coming of Gandhi, he remained a violent

    • The message kids and criminals both get from Tookie's death is that rehabilitation and redemption have no place in prisons.

      He was rehabilitated and redeemed, supposedly. But that doesn't mean he should not be punished as the law requires. Those are separate issues. This certainly does send both messages: that you can be redeemed, but that doesn't mean you won't have to pay the price you owe.

      For kids to get the message about how to avoid gangs and why they should, someone needs to send them said message.
    • The message kids and criminals both get from Tookie's death is that rehabilitation and redemption have no place in prisons.

      IMNSHO.. they don't. At least not for murder. I love all the activists that talked about his wonderous children's books (didn't seem to help his own son who's in jail) and that he's been reformed. Funny.. his victims didn't get a chance at a better life, let alone any life. Why should he be spared.

      Remember, we're not talking about some poor soul that killed in a moment of anger or
      • AMY GOODMAN: [democracynow.org] Stanley Williams, can you talk about why you started the Crips?

        STANLEY TOOKIE WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, I stated it in my memoir, Blue Rage, Black Redemption, that we started out -- at least my intent was to, in a sense, address all of the so-called neighboring gangs in the area and to put, in a sense -- I thought I can cleanse the neighborhood of all these, you know, marauding gangs. But I was totally wrong. And eventually, we morphed into the monster we were addressing.

        AMY GOODMAN: In what way?
  • Not quite what I expected from a Christian. I figured there’d be all sorts of hand-wringing and soul-searching. I suppose you’re more of an Old Testament kinda guy?

    • Ah yes, the old "How can you be against abortion and yet for the death penalty" question.

      Here's my answer: It's a matter of innocence. I believe innocent life should be protected, hence, since I believe life starts at conception, I am opposed to abortion.

      Now on to the death penalty: I believe that innocent life can be best protected by law by legislating that if a person unlawfully deprives another of their life, that the forfeit their own life.

      It's a matter of guilt vs. innocence. I do not believe Took

    • The death penalty is not as clear cut as one might expect for Christians.

      But to claim that the old testament and the new testament differ in teaching is false. Now certain parts, such as the sacrafical law, are not required or obsoleted through fulfillment. But otherwise the teachings are the same.

      The teaching of Christ of when questioned of what the greatest commandment is revealing. First and foremost, love God. The second though, is love your neighbor as yourself. There is no contradiction between t
    • I don't see it as a moral issue, but a practical one. So whatever works best ...

  • I have no problem with the death penalty, I believe that in the murder of another, your life is forfeit. If you have a change of heart after considering your crimes for a few years, good for you. I'm sure now you wish to repair your damages and take responsibility for what you did right? A part of that responsibility is accepting your punishment.

    However, I don't trust government to manage something as simple as an retirement account with any competence, so how could I possible expect it to handle death pen

  • OK, I'm sure we'll hear more about this in the near future, but Fox News carried coverage during Greta's time slot last night, and the reporter on the scene said that recently death row guards had been speaking out a little but about Tookie, saying he was still as mean as they come.

    Now, I didn't know Tookie, I don't know the guards, so I can't say from personal experience.

    So we'll just have to wait and see what comes out in the next couple of weeks from the people who were with him when the camera wasn't on

  • A quick review of Book Scan shows the Tookie series of books have hardly been blockbusters. His top seller, "Gangs and Violence" has sold 330 books. Another book "Gangs and Wanting to Belong" sold exactly two copies. [blacknews.com]

    I emailed the author asking about this, and he said he's received several emails to the effect that Williams donated many copies of his books. But apparently not a lot of people are purchasing them.

    So even if you were to think it's possible to do enough good to warrant clemency in a death

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