Journal perfessor multigeek's Journal: Just to be Sure That I've Offended Everybody . . . 26
Just did yet another rant about being a geek and a comment by an AC reminded me of what I was thinking about last night and this morning.
I just reread much of the Tales of Shaherizade and I was struck by the common thread of valuable goods coming from elsewhere.
Each story has the logic of a child. The protaganist endures, at worst, briefly described and fantastic hardships brought on by nothing and endling arbitrarily. This hardship is usually unrelated to the final rewards, serving only to prove the "worthiness" of the hero. At best a brief bout of cleverness, a well spoken lie or swift twist of the situation frees him. Then the local ruler instantly see the "natural nobility" of the protaganist, weighs him down with jewels, and invites him to join the family.
Sometimes a period of trading is mentioned for a sentence or two. It is never the plot. Nobody breaks a sweat at anything but combat, hunting, or being stranded somewhere waiting for the next plot twist.
Inventors, doctors, and magicians are evil, untrustworthy. Usually foreign, sometimes Jewish. They can be tortured, imprisoned or killed at will since they inevitably "deserve it" anyway, freeing up their creation(s) into the hands of the "noble" idle rich.
This repeats in many variations but the message stays the same.
I have long maintained that a, if not the fatal flaw in Arab culture is that it in general and the cultures of Mecca and the coastal city-states in specific are those of people who obtained their wealth by mooching off the creativity and labor of others. The message of the stories I just read is that all valuable things are magically and arbitrarily created by others Not Like Us. Whether one is talking about a roc's egg in a classic tale or silks, gold, gems, and perfumes in the real historical Arab world, there is nowhere near enough of a tradition of creating value only of stealing or bullying it from others.
The golden age of Baghdad was from when they squatted across the Silk Route and could demand payment from the people passing from Somewhere Else to some other Somewhere Else. They called themselves "traders" and indeed they were that, but they got an awful lot of their wealth by collecting "tolls" from people who got no value in return beyond access to a right of way and a miserly doling out of natural resources like water or figs.
Kinda like oil wealth, ya think?
Look at the true great civilizations and they built. They created value. From China to England, they invented, cleared forests, built factories, raised crops, and earned value with the sweat of their brows and the rigor of their minds. Since the days of the ancients, the wealthy and powerful regions have gotten that way, at least in good measure, through having made fabrics, pottery, machines, or other things of created value.
I ask you, what have the Arabs built?
I do not question that, at least for a while, they were a place of great learning. I do not question their level of accomplishment in the arts.
But that is not enough.
A key part of an ethical structure is becoming mature enough to see the world as a place where things of value are created by People Like Me and to take on the ethical and practical loads that this understanding demands. Anything less is a sort of overskilled childhood, a parasitic bombast that can exist only as long as we who do bear that load agree to be the adults for them.
Of course the Kuwaitis are, by and large, a mass of childish, spoiled cowards. Of course the Saudi family retreats into a self-justifying opposition to the modern world. Of course the Arab states keep falling into the hands of a succession of loudmouthed tyrants, proxy stern fathers ready to take on the role of "the responsible adult". Of course Arab men are famous for idly spending their days sitting around swapping stories, bragging of their prowess and denigrating everybody outside their circle of friends.
One can expect no better of a region of overgrown children.
Am I wrong? Prove it.
Rustin
I just reread much of the Tales of Shaherizade and I was struck by the common thread of valuable goods coming from elsewhere.
Each story has the logic of a child. The protaganist endures, at worst, briefly described and fantastic hardships brought on by nothing and endling arbitrarily. This hardship is usually unrelated to the final rewards, serving only to prove the "worthiness" of the hero. At best a brief bout of cleverness, a well spoken lie or swift twist of the situation frees him. Then the local ruler instantly see the "natural nobility" of the protaganist, weighs him down with jewels, and invites him to join the family.
Sometimes a period of trading is mentioned for a sentence or two. It is never the plot. Nobody breaks a sweat at anything but combat, hunting, or being stranded somewhere waiting for the next plot twist.
Inventors, doctors, and magicians are evil, untrustworthy. Usually foreign, sometimes Jewish. They can be tortured, imprisoned or killed at will since they inevitably "deserve it" anyway, freeing up their creation(s) into the hands of the "noble" idle rich.
This repeats in many variations but the message stays the same.
I have long maintained that a, if not the fatal flaw in Arab culture is that it in general and the cultures of Mecca and the coastal city-states in specific are those of people who obtained their wealth by mooching off the creativity and labor of others. The message of the stories I just read is that all valuable things are magically and arbitrarily created by others Not Like Us. Whether one is talking about a roc's egg in a classic tale or silks, gold, gems, and perfumes in the real historical Arab world, there is nowhere near enough of a tradition of creating value only of stealing or bullying it from others.
The golden age of Baghdad was from when they squatted across the Silk Route and could demand payment from the people passing from Somewhere Else to some other Somewhere Else. They called themselves "traders" and indeed they were that, but they got an awful lot of their wealth by collecting "tolls" from people who got no value in return beyond access to a right of way and a miserly doling out of natural resources like water or figs.
Kinda like oil wealth, ya think?
Look at the true great civilizations and they built. They created value. From China to England, they invented, cleared forests, built factories, raised crops, and earned value with the sweat of their brows and the rigor of their minds. Since the days of the ancients, the wealthy and powerful regions have gotten that way, at least in good measure, through having made fabrics, pottery, machines, or other things of created value.
I ask you, what have the Arabs built?
I do not question that, at least for a while, they were a place of great learning. I do not question their level of accomplishment in the arts.
But that is not enough.
A key part of an ethical structure is becoming mature enough to see the world as a place where things of value are created by People Like Me and to take on the ethical and practical loads that this understanding demands. Anything less is a sort of overskilled childhood, a parasitic bombast that can exist only as long as we who do bear that load agree to be the adults for them.
Of course the Kuwaitis are, by and large, a mass of childish, spoiled cowards. Of course the Saudi family retreats into a self-justifying opposition to the modern world. Of course the Arab states keep falling into the hands of a succession of loudmouthed tyrants, proxy stern fathers ready to take on the role of "the responsible adult". Of course Arab men are famous for idly spending their days sitting around swapping stories, bragging of their prowess and denigrating everybody outside their circle of friends.
One can expect no better of a region of overgrown children.
Am I wrong? Prove it.
Rustin
Scope (Score:1)
If you think about it, early Germany resembles the Baghdad you paint as standing across a trade route, collecting taxes.
It was the Dutch who decided to circumvent this taxation and deal directly with Africa that created some of the first great acceptance of global scope.
Germany never really got into the whole 'Empire Building' in the New World and Pacific.
Of course, they sure went after the Sudetenland.
I don't know how well your theory spells out since the
Re:Scope (Score:2)
Of course, if we take the documents left by the Romans at their word, then the "germans" of their day would fit my theory quite nicely, right down the line. The questions become, A.) do we believe the Romans? (I don't know enough about the archeological record to have any too much certainty) and B.) if so, when do the wander
What can *we* do? (Score:2)
I'll be sending them a hearty box o' supplies from my various clients and some stuff of my own. Also, regardless of their claims of efficiency, I may still send them a box of materials that I will buy for them at the wondrous American Science and Surplus [sciplus.com].
Do whatever you can. They're just about the best chance we've got for now.
Rustin
Re:What can *we* do? (Score:2)
Well, I agree they have strong hearts, but disagree on the minds part. These are exactly the kinds of actions UNRWA [un.org] have been doing to "help" the palestinians. And look where it got them.
As for a solution: I believe the US should split Iraq to the muslim and kurd parts (which is actually what is happening now), withdraw from one, and establish a protectorate in the second.
(Don't worry, the kurds will be very happy to h
Kurd & Muslim nations (Score:2)
But then, I'm in favor of the U.S. breaking up into smaller countries lik
40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:2)
I am reminded of a book I read a few years back called War Without Mercy [amazon.com] about propaganda and racism in the pacific conflict of WWII. The author examines both US and Japanese predjudices. One section of the book examines flawed WWII era studies of Japan, many by respected academicians and sociologist of the time. These studies indicated that the J
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:2)
I dunno about you but I spent part of yesterday going over a doctoral thesis on the role of personal responsibilty and self esteem and their role in learning with the woman about to defend that thesis. Then I went over the implications of that with a former supervisor of school psychologists from the New York Board o
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:2, Interesting)
I do think your argument is both an oversimplification and an overgeneralization. I don't know
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:3, Interesting)
As to the first, read up on the circumstances of the Iraqi invasion. It was pathetic. The Kuwaiti military sure was well-dressed. Word was that they were excellent at finding the best discos all over Europe. I wouldn't trust them to guard a box of blank copier paper.
As to the second, yes, it was a massive generalization. But I'm still waiting for a refutation. Sometimes ge
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:1)
Why doesn't the Mi
What is the point of this discussion? (Score:2)
How about with some facts? I have been known to change my mind. Try me.
I doubt anything in an internet post would convince you otherwise.
On what grounds?
Oh, and for the factors you mention, well:
- the "oil wealth" was a trivial influence until after WWII.
- "Crushing poverty"? No worse then many other places, most notably India, let alone an example you evidently know well, late wartime Japan.
- I'm ignoring anything that you y
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:2)
So how did it end up that way? Me, I think that the political turmoil, wars, dictators and purges can very well be the logical output from the kind of culture Rustin describes.
don't budge from your conviction that it is a character
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:1)
And GMontag is a dirty communist hippie.
Seriously, I'm disappointed, in that you haven't offended me.
Hey, do you have any of your posters in stock? I wanted to do a little research, and thought that a copy would do a great jumping off point.
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:2)
Hey, I'm a conservative damnit! Mix me not into the "neocon" soup!
I've always said that I was not a cultural relativist. I've always said that I found "western" pluralism superior. In fact, now that I'm getting my JE index done, it's all out there and easy to find.
Sorry if I haven't offended you yet. One of these days I'll manage.
I'm out of stock of my posters I'm happy with but the special Northland Poster edition is still available. Give me a week or two and I'll be mail
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:2)
Please also not that I am not agreeing with our host, here. I usually don't, especially at the extremes. I merely admit that I have no counter argument to this JE, and I see none in your post, either.
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:1)
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:2)
Still waiting.
Re:40's thinking is back with a vengence (Score:2)
culture !=race (Score:2)
elmegil, this is not directed just at you but at everybody reading here.
Listen up as I don't intend to repeat myself.
CULTURE IS NOT THE SAME THING AS ETHNICITY OR RACE!
You have presented a false equivalency when you have written And finally, just as you cannot simply say "all african americans are lazy" even if you have strong or outrageous examples of some african americans who do exemplify laziness,
Re:Islam as "the problem" (Score:2)
Also, as I noted earlier, the current fundamentalist trend in Islam is not only recent, it is in large part a result of active encouragement and massive financial and logistical support from Britain and later the U.S. After
Welcome to /. (Score:2)
That's not a bug, it's a feature!
So, now that we've got that out of the way, surely you've got some heated things to say, one way or the other, about our discussion here.
If nothing else, you're probably the only one here who has actually *been* to the Middle East.
-Rustin
It's a nomadic culture with nomadic values. (Score:2)
I think that the answer stems from the difference between a nomadic hunter/gatherer living (which usually turns into a warfare- & thievery-based living and values) to a farming/trade based living, which neccessitates long-term investments and therefore lawfullness and peace.
An (IMHO) illuminating discussion of this difference, and its affect on the developpment of hu
Re:It's a nomadic culture with nomadic values. (Score:2)
Ouch. That stings. This is why I write most of my posts in Simpletext. Notepad is your friend.
I'ld say that we are somewhat on the same track here. Again, this model fits the "german" tribes quite well.
But I'm afraid that I have to somewhat disagree on the Islamic nations at their height. Even at their height, they still were pretty piss-poor on the productivity front. Their abstract science and