I never said Jane objected to a term for "electrical power". I said Jane repeatedly [slashdot.org] objects [slashdot.org] to including a term for radiation from the chamber walls in his calculation of required electrical power. And Jane continues to do this:

Apparently you did not read what I wrote:

NO!!! This is just plain bullshit. I do NOT object to a term for electrical power. I simply asserted a physical truth: in our isolated system, the electrical power to the heat source, called for by Spencer, has zero dependency on the chamber walls.

What I object to is your insane insistence that the electrical power to the heat source requires a term for the chamber walls. This is sheer nonsense. Standard, textbook physics says the thermodynamic temperature of the heat source, since it is "the hottest thing in the room", as it were, is **independent** of radiation from the chamber walls. Since it cannot absorb net radiative power from the chamber walls, any electrical power calculation is similarly independent.

You are attempting to add a term to "account for" radiation from the cooler chamber walls, but no such accounting is necessary according to the Stefan-Boltzmann radiation law. No net radiative power from the chamber walls is absorbed by the heat source. The chamber wall do not somehow magically cause it to output either less or more radiative power, therefore the input power is not dependent on the chamber walls. QED. I've explained this (truly) about 10 times now.

Ranting about imaginary violations of the Stefan-Boltzmann law won't help Jane understand physics. It might help Jane to draw a boundary around the heat source and think carefully about exactly why Jane keeps ignoring the heat radiated in from the chamber wells. Accounting for that radiation doesn't "violate the Stefan-Boltzmann law" but ignoring it violates conservation of energy.

There is nothing imaginary about it. I am the one who told YOU to draw your boundary around your heat source. According to the Stefan-Boltzmann radiation law, no NET RADIATIVE POWER is absorbed by the heat source from the chamber walls, and the chamber walls do not affect its radiative power out. I capitalized different words this time in a (probably vain) attempt to get you to understand what is being said here. **YOU are apparently imagining some kind of magical net energy flow from less thermodynamically energetic to more thermodynamically energetic, which is a violation of the second law of thermodynamics.** The chamber walls neither transfer any of their net radiative power to the heat source, nor do they cause the net radiative power of the heat source to be any less. They have NO EFFECT. Net energy flows only FROM the heat source to the walls, and the temperature of the walls effects heat **transfer** only, not radiative power of the heat source.

For about 100 times now, I do not claim "no radiation" is absorbed. Just no net radiative power.

Jane/Lonny Eachus can capitalize "NET" all he wants, but it doesn't change the fact that Jane's equation assumes warmer objects absorb no radiation from colder objects. Here's an equation which only says there's no NET radiative power input from cooler objects:

electrical power per square meter = (s)*(e)*(Ta^4 - Tb^4)

**The above equation satisfies conservation of energy and says there's no NET radiative power input from cooler objects.**

Right. Exactly. That's the Stefan-Boltzmann radiation law, as I've stated many, many times now. Note that it is an equation for **heat transfer**.

But Jane's equation is different:

electrical power per square meter = (s)*(e)*Ta^4

**YES!!! This is a different equation!** It's not an equation for *heat transfer*! It's the Stefan-Botlzmann RELATION between radiative power out and temperature for gray bodies. **It is used for calculating RADIATIVE POWER OUT versus TEMPERATURE and vice versa. ***It is not for heat transfer and I'm not using it for heat transfer*. YOU are the one who is getting them confused, not me. This *other* equation shows that radiative power is dependent ONLY on emissivity and temperature. It does not depend on other bodies. For the third time (today): it's a temperature vs. power equation, not a heat transfer equation.

Further, "electrical" is your own addition. The equation is for power. It doesn't specify "electrical".

That happens automatically. Jane's equation violates conservation of energy by completely ignoring the term describing radiative "power in" from the chamber walls. So Jane's equation says warmer objects absorb no radiation from colder objects.

"Jane's equation" is the textbook equation for calculating temperature from radiative power of a gray body, and vice versa. **It is not an equation for heat transfer and therefore doesn't have to account for the chamber walls.** At steady-state, it is independent of other bodies. Period. Look it the hell up.

But Jane's equation is nonsense, because absorption is controlled by absorptivity. So we could only ignore the power radiated from the chamber walls if the source's absorptivity = 0. But then its emissivity = 0, so it also couldn't emit any radiation, so it couldn't be a heat source.

RIGHT HERE is where you contradict yourself. You cite the S-B radiation law, above, saying no NET radiative power is absorbed by the warmer body. Apparently you don't understand the concept of NET, even though you have derided me for supposedly "ignoring" it.

I do not claim no radiation is absorbed. I claimed no NET RADIATIVE POWER is absorbed. Those are not the same things. The effect is as if all incident radiation from cooler bodies is reflected, scattered, or transmitted. But since these are diffuse gray bodies of significant mass, they don't transmit. So draw your precious boundary around the heat source. All incoming radiation from the chamber walls is reflected or scattered and **goes right back out**, so you have no net power IN through your boundary. This is at least the second time I have explained this in detail.

There is no magical flow of NET power into your heat source from the chamber walls. That would violate the second law of thermodynamics. Therefore I do not need to account for radiation from the chamber walls in calculating the temperature of the heat source. That is nothing but imaginary nonsense on your part. The Stefan-Boltzmann RELATION (not radiation law) for gray bodies has only 2 variables: emissivity and temperature.

And that is why, when calculating power needs, **I use the appropriate equation for temperature versus power, not the one for heat transfer.**

This is textbook stuff, and you just aren't getting it straight. Are you sure you're a physicist?

But Jane's equation is nonsense, because absorption is controlled by absorptivity. So we could only ignore the power radiated from the chamber walls if the source's absorptivity = 0. But then its emissivity = 0, so it also couldn't emit any radiation, so it couldn't be a heat source.

Look at your S-B equation above. What does it say? No net radiative power is absorbed by warmer bodies from cooler bodies. You said so yourself. But NOW, you're claiming that it is. You contradict yourself.

I will repeat: I did not and do not claim that no radiation is absorbed. Just no net radiative power. Any that does get absorbed is just re-transmitted, with a total power (and therefore heat transfer) effect of ZERO. That's why it is not necessary to account for cooler bodies in the **temperature versus power out** equation.

Jane/Lonny Eachus can capitalize "NET" all he wants, but it doesn't change this fact. Unless Jane/Lonny Eachus would like to correct his equation for required electrical heating power and derive an answer other than 82 W/m^2?

The second equation you cited above is the STANDARD equation for calculating radiative power out of a gray body. I showed you where it was in Wikipedia. It also just happens to be in my heat transfer textbooks. The answer is 82.12 W/m^2. It is the textbook answer. It isn't going to change. Why don't you look it up in a textbook and discover that for yourself?

The first equation you cite, and claim to be using, is an equation for **heat transfer** between two bodies. It is not the equation for radiant power output of a single body. It is the wrong equation for this calculation.

I repeat: if you truly don't understand this, due to your "greenhouse gas religion" or something, that's just too bad. I'm using textbook physics for situations like this. You are not. You are espousing magical net power transfer from cold to hot, rather than actual physics.

Radiative power out of the warmer body is dependent ONLY on emissivity and thermodynamic temperature. Anything else violates the second law of thermodynamics. It isn't controlled or mitigated by nearby cooler bodies. All else being equal, energy doesn't spontaneously travel from cooler to warmer. That's complete bullshit. Doesn't happen.

Knock off the fantasy physics and pick up a textbook.