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Comment: Re:Attn: Haselton (Score 1) 871

But, briefly: Of course the law might be unjust, but how are you going to create a rule that protects people who violated unjust laws, without also protecting people who violated the good ones?

That is an entirely different question than the legitimacy of the 5th amendment. It's also a question that is much more worthy of philosophical debate. The fifth amendment(self-incrimination) debate can conceivably be easily resolved by most people by asking "what happens if we remove it?".

Comment: Re:Attn: Haselton (Score 1) 871

by Galactic Dominator (#45087833) Attached to: Bennett Haselton's Response To That "Don't Talk to Cops" Video

They may interpret "client's best interest" to be limited to the outcome of legal cases.

That isn't fiduciary responsibility. While I'm sure occasions have happened that a cavalier lawyer focused only on the outcome of the case, an attorney is required by law to have a client's short and long term considerations figured into the situation.

If the client thinks he can make his neighborhood safer by turning in a criminal, a lawyer might plausibly claim he wasn't obligated to consider that when calculating his "client's best interest".

The scenario you've offered here is speculative at best. In your initial point, you argue as if the client is the offender. Here now the offender wants to turn someone else in to "make the neighborhood safer" which sounds suspiciously like "think of the children"..

  And I doubt you'll find many in the legal profession dispensing medical advice on anything other than enormously evident causes like treating substance abuse or food addiction. If a client is observably on a negative path concern food intake, it is their responsibility to inform them of it and failing action by the client to trigger some kind of treatment if possible.

Why do you avoid questions like "Who says that whatever law was broken is actually a moral and just law? Or are you saying that because a law exists it's moral and just?"

Comment: Re:Attn: Haselton (Score 1) 871

However those benefits don't accrue to the lawyer, so they may not take it into account when telling you never to talk to the cops.

You ignore the fiduciary responsibility of the lawyer. If it's in the clients best interest to speak to the police, they are bound to advise such a course on the pain of disbarment.

Comment: Re:Attn: Haselton (Score 1) 871

Consider the case where you're guilty but if you answer all the cop's questions, they'll ask the judge for leniency. If you refuse to talk until you get a lawyer, and then "cooperate" through your lawyer, are the cops just as likely to recommend leniency?

Remember in general police don't ask for or against leniency, they just testify. About the only "asking for leniency" a typical judge would give serious weight too(in part because it's a case of having CYA) would be if it came from the prosecutor. Prosecutors and police are generally on the same side, but any deal made by one isn't binding on the other and the only one who really matters is what the prosecutor agrees too. So as in any other field, don't give away leverage until you get something for it. Remember the prosecutor isn't after "justice" as one would normally think of it, but rather punitive convictions that will allow for re-elections and advancement. On that topic I recommend the book "The Collapse of American Criminal Justice" or at least the short review of it here:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/nov/10/our-broken-system-criminal-justice/?pagination=false

One possibility is that if you talk to the police, for example, to help them catch a criminal, that may benefit you (insofar as it makes your neighborhood safer) and perhaps you might sincerely care about making your society safer as well. However, that doesn't benefit the lawyer, so they don't care.

I don't know what kind of answer this is, but it isn't an answer to the question I asked. It seems you took the opportunity to construct a response that would make your position tenable on maybe some kind of righteous quest. Who says that whatever law was broken is actually a moral and just law? Or are you saying that because a law exists it's moral and just?

Comment: Re:Attn: Haselton (Score 1) 871

I don't care about the minutiae of either side of this argument. What I care about it the truth of a position. The central tenant to wisdom is the ability to rigorously critique and defend any position you might hold eg Socratic thought. When I read your discourse on the morality of the the Fifth Amendment, I see text that was written to support a judgement already made. I don't think you have wrestled with the ramifications of your position enough. A good sit down with some Kafka might cure you of this.

> Do you think Officer Bruch was lying or was Professor Duane wrong?

First take my point on philosophy. You've just committed a false dichotomy. I think the people who "helped themselves" could have done so without risking talking to the police. Considering the number of police questions in the course of history, I'm sure there are at least a small number of cases where a person was able to manipulate outcomes in their favor by talking to police especially if it helped the police nail someone else.

I'll offer a question in return. Lawyers have a fiduciary relationship with their clients and almost universally recommend to not speak to police. In light of your position, why you suppose this is?

Comment: Attn: Haselton (Score 2, Informative) 871

Please quit. You're initial analysis was weak, and this rebuttal makes you seem like a much less intelligent person than I think you are. Your rationals remind me of the unrigorous positions of a call-in partisan radio show. If you're going to stick with philosophy, try to understand the fundamentals of forming an argument prior to publicizing this amateur manifesto stuff. Reading more from you is a waste of everyone's time until then.

The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. -- Sagan

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