Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Reading the Fine Print on the Cybercrime Treaty

Posted by michael on Sat Mar 24, 2001 08:48 AM
from the bring-a-magnifying-glass dept.
Anonymous Coward writes: "Mike Godwin, Former Counsel to the Electronic Frontier Foundation and author of Cyber Rights writes about a new international treaty on cybercrime known as the "Convention on Cybercrime." The Council of Europe, a 43-nation public body created to promote democracy and the rule of law, is nominally drafting the treaty. The primary architect is the United States Department of Justice which is using a foreign forum to create an international law-enforcement regime that favors the interests of the feds over those of ordinary citizens and businesses."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold:
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
  • Worrying for Europeans by jregel (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @05:51AM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by nut (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @08:37AM
  • No free speech in UN Declaration of Human Rights. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @05:54AM
  • This paragraph is cool - read ! by RedLaggedTeut (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @06:40AM
  • Re:Worrying for Europeans by kurioszyn (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @09:17AM
  • Re:No free speech in UN Declaration of Human Right by tagishsimon (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @06:40AM
  • Re:Anonymity is a Crime now, and Civil court repla by Broadcatch (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @09:33AM
  • You are incorrect by 10101011000 (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @09:41AM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by UltraBot2K1 (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @06:41AM
  • Bibliography of Cybercrime Treaty Articles by paulclark (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @02:23PM
  • Re:Worrying for Europeans by Art Tatum (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @06:58AM
  • Not necessarily by Illserve (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @09:58AM
  • Re:Hee hee! by Zigurd (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @10:28AM
  • Re:Who foots the bill? by HuskyDog (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @02:24PM
  • Re:Who foots the bill? by HuskyDog (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @10:28AM
  • Re:No free speech in UN Declaration of Human Right by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @03:30PM
  • Re:Who foots the bill? by RonVNX (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @10:28AM
  • The US doesn't have very good credentials. by janpod66 (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @10:28AM
  • why this, but not the Rome Statute? by danny (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @03:58PM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by Grab (Score:2) Monday March 26 2001, @01:19AM
  • How the US handles treaties by Stultsinator (Score:1) Monday March 26 2001, @01:29AM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by edack (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @04:38PM
  • Re:The usual suspects by tkrotchko (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @04:46PM
  • Re:Int'l law is only way to get around Constitutio by Bobo the Space Chimp (Score:1) Wednesday March 28 2001, @12:12PM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by Bobo the Space Chimp (Score:1) Wednesday March 28 2001, @12:39PM
  • Re:The usual suspects by Bobo the Space Chimp (Score:1) Wednesday March 28 2001, @12:53PM
  • The usual suspects (Score:4)

    by localroger (258128) on Saturday March 24 2001, @05:07AM (#343117) Homepage
    From the article...

    The treaty has supporters, of course. The Motion Picture Association of America, the Recording Industry of America Association, and the Business Software Alliance all favor the treaty's requirement that certain copyright infringements be handled under criminal law.

    What a surprise.

  • Re:You're not making sense by localroger (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @05:54AM
  • Let me interpret what this means: by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @05:18AM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by Kryptonomic (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @07:13AM
  • But Justice is trying to do what Congress wouldnt by 10101011000 (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @07:17AM
  • by HuskyDog (143220) on Saturday March 24 2001, @06:03AM (#343122) Homepage
    The article points out on more than one occasion that ISPs will incure substantial costs investigation possible crimes on behalf of other nation's police forces.

    However every ISP that I have ever dealt with has had an indemnity clause in their user agreement. Now, IANAL, but I get the impression that I have agreed that if my ISP spends money in staff and legal costs investigating a complaint about me from police in for example Riga or Washington then they can send me the bill and I will have to pay it.

    Note: I am in the UK, but I assume that a similar system exists in other countries?

  • by Kasreyn (233624) on Saturday March 24 2001, @07:30AM (#343123) Homepage
    Flashbacks to "Animal Farm"...

    Kasreyn turns to Benjamin the Goat...

    "Benjamin, my eyes are failing. Can you read to me what the First Commandment says?"

    The old donkey sighed, then squinted at the side of the old barn... Finally, he spoke.

    "Every animal is allowed freedom of his thoughts and ideals, as long as they are not expressed in a way that would offend others."

    Kasreyn sighed. "I could have sworn it used to say something about freedom of speech... didn't you? Well, I guess it doesn't really matter - Comrade Napoleon is always right."

    Does this strike anyone else as VERY FUCKING SCARY? This is the fucking U.N. charter, and it doesn't include freedom of speech, but everyone just *assumes* it does.

    It really does feel to me like the part from the middle of Animal Farm, where the pigs were surreptitiously rewriting the Commandments, with no one the wiser. Finally they were able to abuse the other animals terribly, all the while claiming it was merely their virtuous prerogative under the laws.

    I think Orwell's little attempt at humor or consolation, in calling it a "Fairy Tale", was misguided, even in as bleak a pessimist as he.

    -Kasreyn
  • by Alien54 (180860) on Saturday March 24 2001, @06:18AM (#343124) Journal
    Like all things, this sounds like a really good Idea so long as only the people you trust are in charge. And a really bad idea when the people you don't like could get their fingers into it. And a really horrible idea if you do not or cannot trust anyone.

    Of course, the authorities do not have an answer to this. They may not want to have an answer to this.

    The mental health authorities do not have any answer to this. Yet you would think they would have some effective answer to trustworthiness that would not have orwellian overtones. But their focus is not on human values like social virtues like being trustworthy. Their focus is very much elsewhere. Ultimately their focus is on control.

    But I do not blame them for this, because that is not where the money is. For many many years the big bucks for research have gone into the high profit areas, such as advertising and drugs. Madison Avenue has paid billions of dollars to find out how to more effectively manipulate their market. The drug research has gone to helping people be outwardly calm and peaceful. NOTE: Calm and peaceful sounds nice, but I do not think that calm and peaceful is always an appropriate response to a situation. But being passive is often defined as the appropriate and healthiest response

    This is troubling in the context of the emerging Global legal system. The rule used to be that you had to be in a country to break it's laws (such as a traffic accident). Now we have a problem of WHOSE laws and standards are going to be enforced world wide. The emerging answer is EVERYONES, and when in doubt, well you have the lunacy of France barring Yahoo for content on USA sites.

    We'll have to have porno like disclaimers saying "warning this content may be illegal outside of the USA" with perl and java setup to block access from non-USA ip addresses.

    The fragmentation of the Internet continues, and the legal system is a bloody mess.

  • The process was flawed by satch89450 (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @07:49AM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by UltraBot2K1 (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @06:26AM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by Art Tatum (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @07:57AM
  • Re:The usual suspects by LL (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @11:32AM
  • Passage by Husaria (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @08:07AM
  • Re:Who foots the bill? by BlueUnderwear (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @11:35AM
  • Re:No free speech in UN Declaration of Human Right by tkrotchko (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @08:14AM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by Flower (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @12:02PM
  • Re:Who foots the bill? by BlueUnderwear (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @08:27AM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by Bobzibub (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @08:28AM
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by BasicBoomstick (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @12:53PM
  • For a new law by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @05:03AM
  • Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by UltraBot2K1 (Score:2) Saturday March 24 2001, @05:05AM
  • This is BS. (Score:3)

    by HerrGlock (141750) on Saturday March 24 2001, @04:59AM (#343138) Homepage
    Second, it requires nations to develop standard procedures to capture and retrieve online and other information. Nations would have to be able to issue "retention orders" that would "freeze" data on any

    computer. Governments would also need the ability to capture in real time the time and origin of all traffic on a networks, including telephone networks. For serious crimes, they would be required to

    intercept the actual content of the communications.

    Third, nations would have to cooperate with other nations in sharing electronic evidence across borders. And this cooperation requirement would apply to all crimes. They don't have to be the cybercrimes

    laid out in the first section of the treaty or even actions unlawful under U.S. law.

    So, regardless of any country's 'right to privacy' this says you have none.

    There's no mention of encryption that I can find, though. Does that mean that if everything I do is encrypted then it cannot be recovered? Or that there is no encryption available because it would cause the search and recovery impossible?

    This sounds like a really REALLY bad idea.

    DanH
    Cav Pilot's Reference Page [cavalrypilot.com]
  • Re:Cybercrime Treaty is a positive step by Vuarnet (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @06:33AM
  • Hee hee! (Score:3)

    by Greyfox (87712) on Saturday March 24 2001, @06:33AM (#343140) Homepage
    Yes! And by doing so they can circumvent ALL your constitutional rights, including the ever important First, Fourth and Fifth ammendments, because treaties have the same precedence as the supreme law of the land (Article VI.) Getting a treaty ratified is a hell of a lot easier than ammending the Constitution and can be effectively done without voter approval! Nice loophole guys!
  • Anonymity is a Crime now, and Civil court replaced by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday March 24 2001, @05:42AM