China to Make $125 PCs

TechFreep writes "A Chinese computer company hopes to sell low-cost PCs to schools and government agencies, but allegations of ripped-off processor designs might slow the effort. From the article: 'Chinese-based ZhongKe Menglan Electronics Technology Co. will produce several thousand low-cost PCs to distribute to schools and local governments. The PCs, which will initially sell for $150 to $175, will run on Linux and include 256Mb of RAM, a 40 or 60GB hard drive, and a Godson-2 CPU clocked between 800Mhz and 1Ghz. If initial sales of the product are successful ZhongKe will begin mass production of the units for sale at around 125 US dollars. However, the Godson-2 CPU included in the PCs has come under scrutiny of late. BLX IC Design Corp., producer of the Godson-2, produced its first working prototype in 2005. The chip clocked at 500Mhz, and BLX at the time claimed the Godson's performance rivaled that of higher-clocked Pentium III CPUs. However, the chip's architecture has gotten attention around the industry for its similarities to the MIPS chip from MIPS Technologies Inc. According to market research group In-Stat, the Godson-2 is about 95 percent compatible with the MIPS R10000, which was introduced in 1995.'"

So what are we upset about?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Are we upset that some defunct chip designer isn't getting their cut? Or is it that the Chinese are making cheap computers for themselves instead of for us? Or maybe it's that the Chinese aren't outsourcing their production to the West?

I don't know what's the problem here. It sounds like a great idea to put as many people on the internet as cheaply as possible because more people means more information and more information transfer. Now Wang Chung in the sticks can be just as up to date with government propaganda as Chung King in Shanghai is.

Bruce Lee unavailable for comment.

Why is this so hard?

[UbuntuDupe]

I seem to recall that 200 MHz and an 8 Gig hard drive was top of the line, some time during the 90's. Such computers seemed to handle word processing, web browsing, email, etc. just fine. What would those components cost now? Not very much because of miniaturization. A $125 computer should be no big deal right?

So how's that $100 PC coming along? WHAT?? Why do you need those kinds of specs?

Re:Why is this so hard?

[grumbel]

Such computers seemed to handle word processing, web browsing, email, etc.

Not when you want to use OpenOffice and Firefox. I am not sure if they really want to, but todays applications simply require quite a bit more CPU and RAM then yesterdays applications, even for the very same jobs. So unless they also write the low-spec software, they better make sure that they have enough power to run current days applications.

Re:So what are we upset about?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Assuming that you're actually serious, someone owns those designs - cheap PCs are a laudable goal, but that's no justification for ripping off a bunch of people.

Re:MIPS patents?

[qbwiz]

It's not too terrible to program an x86 in assembly (all those extra instructions can sometimes come in handy, in a way), but I'd really rather not implement an x86. The instruction decoder alone would take ages to work out.

$125 still might be too expensive

[the_humeister]

This is especially when I can get a used computer with decent specifications (Pentium III, 1 GHz, etc) for approximately $25-$50 at the local surplus store.

Re:95% compatibility?

[shadow_slicer]

'Instriial espionnage' is not needed. The MIPS instruction set and architecture are standard reading for anybody in the field. They're not saying they copied the layout or instruction set, it's more like the API.

All processors have a language they understand, a sequence of bits that have an arbitrary meaning to them. And these are usually published far and wide, so that people can write compilers and operating systems and assemblers for this processor. MIPS in particular is very popular to study because the simple structure makes it possible for teachers to make creating a VHDL or Verilog implementation of a simplified MIPS instruction set into a half-semester project.
In fact I doubt their implementation is anywhere near the same caliber as the Pentium III implementation, even if they claim the same speed. What probably happened is they have access to more modern, smaller fabrication methods so they can cram more transistors into the pipeline. And even soft IP cores in FPGAs can hit 200MHz, so a well designed core could probably hit 500 MHz in an ASIC.

That being said, creating a full super-scalar CPU implementing even 95% of the MIPS 64-4 version of the instruction set in silicon is difficult. I was not familiar with this specification, but a quick search on google reveals that

The Mips R10000 is a dynamic superscalar microprocessor that implements the 64-bit Mips-4 Instruction Set Architecture. It fetches and decodes four instructions per cycle and dynamically issues them to five fully pipelined low-latency execution units. Instructions can be fetched and executed speculatively beyond branches. Instructions graduate in order upon completion. Although instructions execute out of order, the processor still provides sequential memory consistency and precise exception handling.The R10000 is designed for high performance, even in large real-world applications which have poor memory locality. With speculative execution, it calculates memory addresses and initiates cache refills early. Its hierarchical nonblocking memory system helps hide memory latency with two levels of set-associative, write-back caches.

This is a really beefy processor that was probably state of the art in its time. Of course that was over 10 years agos. Is it really so suprising China is only 10 years behind in chip design? After all aren't most of the chip fabrication facilities in east Asia? I'd imagine there would be quite a few people who after a few years decide they want to be on the other end of the process.

Re:Why is this so hard?

[mcrbids]

I seem to recall that 200 MHz and an 8 Gig hard drive was top of the line, some time during the 90's. Such computers seemed to handle word processing, web browsing, email, etc. just fine. What would those components cost now? Not very much because of miniaturization. A $125 computer should be no big deal right?


Don't forget the concept of the minimum cost of production.

It doesn't actually cost (much) more to produce a 300 GB HDD than an 8 GB HDD. You have the same basic amount of aluminum, wire, circuit boards, chips, solder joints, IDE connectors,etc in either case. It occupies the same amount of space, and still needs to be assembled, checked, packed, shipped, and accounted for.

All these things do not change regardless of the HDD capacity. At a certain point, these costs overtake the profit involved in manufacturing, so that it no longer even makes sense to manufacture the drive any longer. That today is somewheres around $75-100 per drive. (retail) This cost is dropping, and has continued to drop, but it's still there.

This is why a $300 computer today blows the doors off a computer built 5 years ago for $1000, but the 5 year old computer cannot be produced today for its relative value. (say, $125)

Re:125$ is still unaffordable

[808140]

It's far cheaper than what (the Chinese anyway) currently have to shell out for a computer system. It may not reach impoverished farmers in Guizhou province, but it will certainly increase the number of people who can afford a computer.

However, I anticipate that no one will buy it. Computers are too expensive for many Chinese to own personally, but "internet cafes" ("gaming cafe" would be a more accurate name) are plentiful and extremely cheap -- 2 or 3 yuan per hour is typical (that's about 25 - 30 cents US). PC gaming is huge in the PRC (consoles never really caught on), and that's what the vast majority of Chinese use their machines for -- that and chatting, mostly on QQ, which GAIM and friends do not support*.

The result is that most Chinese are routinely exposed to Windows, and worse, they're addicted to a wide variety of Windows-only software. While owning your own machine is certainly a nice perk, the question they will be asking themselves is, do I want to shell out 125 dollars for a machine that won't run any software I want, or do I want to suffer through not having my own machine, and buy a USB memory stick instead, and do all my computing at the local internet cafe?

My guess is that for the vast majority of Chinese, the latter will seem like a much sounder choice. A 125 dollar x86-compatible machine would be one thing, but if all it can run is Linux, the Chinese won't go for it. Linux penetration in China is virtually nil, except maybe in the government, but they're not the types that would buy 125 dollar, 500MHz desktops.

Thankfully, Chinese support is much better in Linux now than it used to be, but there are still no decent free Chinese fonts -- something that, as a Chinese speaker who uses Linux exclusively, I am very aware of. This company probably would think nothing of bundling MS's SimSun and SimHei fonts with their distribution, as they've thought nothing of using a rip off MIPS chip, but that would be copyright infringement and in my mind wrong. I personally use SimSun and SimHei, but I paid the MS tax when I bought my thinkpad with XP pre-installed (in China, no less). The $125 laptop doesn't come with a Windows license.

All in all, it looks like a bust. It's cool, though.

(*There have been a few attempts to port QQ to Linux, but Tencent adds features to the QQ protocol much too quickly to keep up. Lack of support for wanted features would make Linux seem broken, even though the real culprit is a complex, proprietary, binary protocol with built in obsolescence... but hey, they don't know that.)

XBox

[kyb]

XBox: Intel Celeron 733 MHz CPU, nVidia GeForce 3MX, 64 MB of RAM, 10 GB hard disk, a DVD drive and 10/100 Ethernet.
Cost new: $125

So there's already a 125$ pc that can run linux in the mass market here for $125. The specs aren't quite as good as the chinese one, but it is quite a few years old now, and has a well known intel processor and graphics accelerator.

kyb

Re:$125 still might be too expensive

[MarkByers]

This is especially when I can get a used computer with decent specifications (Pentium III, 1 GHz, etc) for approximately $25-$50 at the local surplus store.

Now try buying a few hundred million used computers at your local surplus store and see if you can still get the same deal. China has a lot of people and buying computers from American second hand stores isn't really a feasible business plan for a company trying to make ground in the Chinese market.

Re:Why is this so hard?

[drsquare]

Yes, they ran Netscape 3.0 and Windows 95 just fine. Similar software today, however, is much better than it used-to be, which is why almost nobody uses that old software on their new computers.

Is the software really better? Compare the system requirements for Word XP to Word 95, and tell me how much extra functionality it really has. People upgraded from Windows 95 because it crashed so often, not because the newer versions had more functionality.

Re:So what are we upset about?

[Noodlenose]

I have no problem with Chinese people--but I fucking hate their country and everything it stands for.

You're of course trolling, but your lacking maturity makes this acceptable.

Nevertheless there is nothing more abstract and idiotic to say "I hate this country". What do you hate? Is its rolling hills, its rivers or panda bears? Or might it be that you have a problem with Chinas government and its struggling reformist arm?

Well, you should say so. There are millions of trolls on Slashdot, but why not aspire to be a troll with something to say?

Re:So what are we upset about?

[RAMMS+EIN]

``The Chinese are already a big enough economic threat to the rest of us;''

What makes you think that? China's economic boom is due to it being beneficial both to China and to its trade partners. After all, if it weren't beneficial to them, why would they engage in the trade?

``they certainly don't need freebies. Besides, isn't it interesting how despite their "internationally competitive" universities, "brilliant minds" and "unlimited resources," they can't even design a relatively simple CPU without ripping off the West?''

Who says they couldn't have? I'm sure they could have, but the way they have chosen has a number of advantages. First of all, it saves the design costs (remember they are using this to make _cheap_ computers) and, secondly, it will be compatible with existing software (which, again, saves costs). I am happy to see people choosing to re-use something that already exists instead of inventing their own out of NIH syndrome, for once.

``Personally, I find the prospect of a world economically dominated by China to be scary as all hell, and if you're European or American, you should too.''

Just because China has the fastest growing economy in the world doesn't mean they will become economically dominating. The major reason for their economy growing so fast is that it's playing catch-up: we're outsourcing work (mostly manufacturing) to China because labor is cheap there. With the arrival of these jobs, wages will go up and labor won't be as cheap anymore - eventually the process will slow down.

Of course, there are other incentives, such as China being a huge market and having relaxed laws w.r.t. people's rights and the environment. We can have a huge market, too, if we quit posting guards at the borders collecting import/export fees and protecting our local industries. People's rights and protection of the environment will come to China eventually, once people have the luxury of caring about them (you need to eat, first) and once things get bad enough. Just like it happened in Europe in the twentieth century.

``Oh, by the way, did you hear they're harvesting organs from (living) Falun Gong practitioners? I have no problem with Chinese people--but I fucking hate their country and everything it stands for.''

China is a huge country with a huge government apparatus. Not everybody in the government is moving in the same direction. They're repressing criticism and taking people's land at the same time as creating better opportunities for economic growth and education. It will get better; give it some time. Europe didn't get rid of its tyrants overnight, either.

By the way, did _you_ know that the USA has been invading sovereign countries under false pretenses and without provocation, and that many European countries have been complicit or even supporting? I don't know where you are from, but I'm sure your country isn't all that innocent, either.

Re:Why is this so hard?

[sorak]

I seem to recall that 200 MHz and an 8 Gig hard drive was top of the line, some time during the 90's. Such computers seemed to handle word processing, web browsing, email, etc. just fine. What would those components cost now? Not very much because of miniaturization. A $125 computer should be no big deal right?

Inflation doesn't just happen in economics. I had a 300Mhz k6-2 until about 4 years ago, and one thing I noticed is that, when it was brand new, it could run my favorite mp3 ripper/player, and a web browser, and still have enough resources to handle most of what I threw at it. Toward the end, it couldn't even play MP3s, because the mp3 ripper/player kept making forced updates, and released a version that took far more resources to accomplish the same task. Sure, it looked better, but it couldn't do anything useful on a 300MHz.

Anyway, the point is that if you can dig up yesterday's software, then you can use yesterday's technology to accomplish what people were doing, back in the day. But, if you try to use modern software releases, you will find that you need a more powerful system just to handle tasks people have been doing for the past twenty years.

Re:So what are we upset about?

[hey!]

but that's no justification for ripping off a bunch of people.

Actually intellecutal property "owners" don't really have a fundamental expectation of having the same monopoly on ideas in other countries that the do in their own.

China, however, is a WIPO country. If these guys are cheating with the collusion of the Chinese government, the government may be reneging on its commitments; theyh would be getting protection for their inventors without affording equal protection to foreign inventors. On the other hand, even if the Chinese are not strictly cheating, it is still possible that they may interpret each individual case more loosely.

Re:So what are we upset about?

[Jamie Lokier]

A practical difference between MIPS and ARM is that there are a number of MIPS clones which don't have to license anything from MIPS, provided they leave out the patented instructions. Whereas, cloning an ARM gets lots of hassle from ARM Ltd. Even just writing a software simulator for ARM is a problem(!) - this is why Qemu only emulates old ARMs.

So if someone's going to implement one of those instruction sets, it will tend to be MIPS if they're designing their own chip, and either of them if they're buying a pre-designed core.

Forget Patents

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason they can make $125 pcs is because their labor force is practically a slave force. It's almost worse than working for Dell!