TiVo Introduces Series2

KMFMS writes "Yesterday, TiVo introduced their Series2 line of TiVo DVRs. The TiVo web page for the Series2 states that it will have "2 USB expansion ports to connect to peripheral devices like... network adaptors..." " Presumably this will mean Tivo will have Broadband support to compete with the new ReplayTV 4000's. It also claims to support music and stuff too.

Re:How long?

[inerte]

Forever, specially when copying content from a device to another can be tracked (and charged). If we get to this situation, MPAA will surely profit of it.

Network adapters...

[tRoll with Butter]

...and they're still going to charge ten clams a month for guide data that's freely available on the web? I'm willing to bet, the answer is yes.

This is the ONLY reason I'm not a Tivo user. Sure, the hardware is cool and it would be great to set something to record Battlebots, the Crocodile Hunter and a few other *special* shows... But for $119.88 a year for freely available data? I think not.

Oh well, maybe if the new features work without a subscription, I'll take a look.... But wait, didn't the release of extractstream (can't find link at the moment, I'll leave this up to you link-finders out there) make Tivo respond by saying the next version of the Tivo hardware would use millitary-grade crypto? So much for hackability.

Re:Upgrade?

[JohnGalt42]

Enabled for future services in home entertainment

Well, if those are still future services, why would I want to upgrade now? Why don't I wait until these services are actually available and I can be certain that unit, with add-ons, actually functions the way they claim it will.

Missing stuff?

[sammy.lost-angel.com]

Why not firewire? It's a LOT faster, and besides, intel wants the market to move in this direction.

And, for god sakes, why not have ethernet, or wireless ethernet build in? My television is nowhere near a phone line, which is part of the reason for not getting a tivo. Although the prices for series one will probably drop now.

Re:Network adapters...

[NMerriam]

They're not selling the data. They're selling the format and convenience of the data.

You can buy a sunday paper and get the TV listings. Somehow TV Guide stays in business selling the same "data" to people, but usually in a better format.

Not that i wouldn't love to be able to get all the stuff for free, but the key to tivo staying in business and making cool boxes is for them to make money somehow. If it would just go over my DSL IP connection I'd be happier than the whole dialing-in thing.

Re:Network adapters...

[mikeylebeau]

Agreed, they're not just selling the data. Add to that the fact that the subscriptions are really the only thing that make TiVo a decent business model (the only things that come to mind from which TiVo might profit is (1) licensing the TiVo technology to box makers like Sony and Philips, (2) the subscription fees, and (3) content deals with big networks), I'm happy to fork over the cash in hopes that it might help a company succeed which deserves to succeed.

Finally, think of it this way. Subscription fees are a way of subsidizing the cost of the set-top box. If you don't like that idea, you can just pay the extra $250 (it was $200 when I bought my TiVo) for lifetime service, and then you're essentially paying TiVo what it should cost to buy the box. Otherwise you can do that in monthly or annual increments down the line, but since I planned (and still do plan) on keeping my TiVo for many years to come when I bought it in June of 2000, I bought the lifetime, which, as of something like this March, will have paid for itself.

-mikey

All well and good...

[sdo1]

The new features are all well and good, but I think the key to TiVo's long term success will continue to lie in its simplicity. Right now, it's something that your grandmother can use. It's simple, intuitive, and useful. While adding ports may up the "geek factor" to compete with ReplayTV, it really adds very little in the long run.

If you really want a whiz-bang system with home networking and other features built in, the way to get that NOW is to roll your own PC based system. There's plenty of software available.

If TiVo makes the mistake of over complicating their product and bogging it down with vaporware (see previous RealNetworks article), then they may have problems. Ask yourself what level of technology your non-technical friends and relatives are comfortable dealing with. Most can't even hook up their VCR correctly.

I love my TiVo. It's easy to use and simply works great. I don't ever see myself being without some sort of PVR.

-S

Interesting compromise...

[Fnkmaster]

What's odd about this is the fact that they put USB there. A USB Ethernet adapter can handle all of 10Mbit ethernet - no 100 Mbit ethernet here. I have two Tivo's currently, and have a 10MBit ethernet card in my SA (Standalone Tivo) and it is honestly slow as ass to transfer a show over to my desktop. But that's an ISA adapter hack with an old ISA 10baseT card in it - the Real Deal ought to include a 100baseT built in ethernet to stream big movies.

While it's true that for streaming over the internet directly from a Tivo it wouldn't matter, but it's pretty crazy to go around transferring full bitrate MPEG encoded movies - what most people want to be able to do is download video to their computer and re-encode or shrink it down to a reasonable archiveable size.

This sketches me out - I have a strange feeling that something is going on behind the scenes here - remember the flap over the ReplayTV that could "share movies with your friends". Tivo is a saavy company when it comes to placating the media world. I have a feeling there is a reason they are putting USB on it rather than ethernet directly. But it doesn't quite click to me what it could be - other than that this allows them to assess the industry response to it, and choose to release or not release official ethernet-USB support at a later date without endangering the product itself, and surely some hackers will make ethernet work anyway to appeal to the gear head crowd.

So I think this is a carefully considered business decision. I also know a lot of folks in the Tivo community and have no doubt that within weeks of these things hitting the stores all sorts of cool unintended uses for these USB ports will be thought up. I'll be first in line to buy one, as soon as the DirecTV-integrated version is out.

Re:Network adapters...

[SethJohnson]

Or you could buy the lifetime package and be done with it.

Do you boycott all products / services that package something freely available in a more useful form? Sure, I don't buy bottled water, but what about the newspaper? What about linux distros? Why go to the movies at the theater when they'll eventually be shown on broadcast tv stations like NBC or FOX?

I find myself buying the newspaper rather than looking at the online version because I enjoy the portability and bathroom-readability of it. I purchase SuSE cdroms to support the improvement of the product without having to get my hands dirty writing code. I pay $7.50 to see movies in the theater because I want to see them on a big screen with a great sound system and share the experience with a few hundred other people.

There often is a value-add in a company taking something that's freely available and selling it. If there wasn't, then there would be legions more people who share your perspective, and these companies wouldn't be able to stay afloat. In the case of TiVO, they have significant value-add with using the tv listings. It's not a box that simply displays the channel guide (channel 7 here in Austin, TX). Consider Tivo to be your TV administrator. It watches those listings like a damn hawk, swooping down and snatching up the programs you wouldn't have noticed were on. Unless, of course, you want to spend more than $10.00 of your time and energy each month monitoring those tv listings yourself. It has such value add as providing a hot-list of celebrities to watch for, so it'll record Conan Obrien whenever some hot chick you saw in Maxim is on there (or any other show she appears on).

Look, I'm not trying to sell people a tivo. It's just my experience that some freely-available stuff can be improved and worth purchasing.

Re:Thanks but ill pass on TIvo...why ?

[TwoStep]

If you are so concerned, TiVo allows you to opt out of the data collection.

Personally, I like that they collect what I watch. Maybe that will mean that the shows I watch don't get cancelled...

Twostep

Re:Network adapters...

[portnoy]

Believe it or not, I want TiVo to report my viewing habits. Hell, I want them to tell UPN that I follow Buffy faithfully, whether in repeats or first-run. I want them to tell NBC that even though I'll record Will & Grace, I'm more likely to delete it than watch it, whereas I'll watch an episode of West Wing twice before it goes to the bit bucket. I even want them to look at my season pass order and tell the WB that I'd watch Gilmore Girls religiously if they were bright enough to schedule it sometime other than when Buffy is on.

Anything to let these networks know what I'm interested in seeing, and what they can do with all the crap they stuff down my pipeline.

USB Speed & Network Features

[KerosX]

I noticed that a few people were talking about how USB is so slow. What if they were including a USB 2.0 controller? Theoretical speeds for 2.0 are above that of IEE1394.

On the other hand, for the features that I'd love to see you may not need anything faster then 12Mbs. Personaly I would love to be able to use my cable modem connection to be able to update my show listings and maybe (I wish) be able to do some remote control from the Internet.

Re:Great. Just great.

[stripes]

USB ports are great and everything, but if it still requires a modem line to get guide data and uses the USB network adapter for its "extended services"... Yuck.

Well since the people who have hacked an ethernet into the older TiVos (or just used ppp over the serial port) have successfully used their own network connection to download schedule info (on subscribed TiVos), I don't see why TiVo would go to lengths to make it not work here.

I'm also a bit put out that Tivo isn't doing anything to announce improvements in the following areas:

I would guess they don't want to announce them until they have them working, a UI for them, and maybe even have them in beta testing. Plus of corse, they may not want to do some/all of those things.

Re:What about multiple tuners?

[stripes]

My main gripe about Tivo right now is that I can't record one program and watch another at the same time. UltimateTV and even DirecTivo have this capability, or alternately the ability to record two shows at the same time.

That would require duplications almost every item the stand alone TiVo has. You need another set of IR blasters to go to another cable box. Another coax in, another antenna in, another RCA in set. You need another tuner (for the antenna in), another NTSC decoder. Another MPEG encoder.

In other words you more or less double the SA TiVo's cost (er, except for the hard disk, and the rather inexpensive CPU).

I would rather see a way to network multiple TiVos and have them seemlessly act as one big TiVo. Need a second tuner? Buy a second TiVo. Need more disk space? Get yet another. All three networks have their one best show at the same time, plus HBO's new series airs then too? Get four TiVos.

That would be a lot more general, and not cost significantly more....

(Why does the DTiVo and UTV have two tuners then? Well they only have one extra sat input, and no extra MPEG encoder, in fact they have zero mpeg encoders. So the extra cost was pretty small.)

Consumer Electronics != Software

[Doktor Memory]

I really doubt it. It would be nice, but when was the last time you heard of a DVD player or television coming with an upgrade discount.

As long as they keep providing service for the S1 TiVos, I don't see any reason to expect a discount on the new ones.

Yeah yeah yeah...

[Doktor Memory]

...and they're still going to charge ten clams a month for guide data that's freely available on the web? I'm willing to bet, the answer is yes.

Yeah yeah yeah. Call us when you've implemented a system that not only downloads that data into a regularized format for PVRs to read, but is smart enough to follow schedule changes on its own.

In the meantime, please look up the definition of "value-add" in your nearest Business 101 textbook.