Agenda's Linux Based Handheld

ebroo writes: "The Linux Agenda VR3 handheld from Agenda Computing just so happens to be Linux based." Not nearly as impressive as the iPaq which I've now seen running X with handwriting recognition, but much more practical and very inexpensive. I'm not sure if you can actually buy one yet tho...

Devel any easier?

I got my first Palm about a year ago. I wanted a spreadsheet for it: Nothing free. OK, I'll write my own. After a week or so of looking around and reading, I had some programming docs and managed to get a very simple Hello World working. Then I was busy moving cross country and stopped.

Then I got a new Palm and bought the "Palm Programming" book from OReilly. Worked for a couple of weeks, but couldn't get a spreadsheet put together. The only chapter that deals with tables has maybe 20 pages total and doesn't have any real examples. Book returned. Also note: Figuring out which Linux-based GNU dev tools are the right ones is....non-trivial.

I also found a single slide from a slideshow at Palm's Dev site that mentioned tables. To paraphrase: "Not recommended for a spreadsheet app". OK, but what is?

Meanwhile, on my desktop I hacked a (very) simple spreadsheet engine together in about 2 hours. Yes, two hours. But I can't put a UI on my Palm and I don't need a spreadsheet on my desktop.

Which brings me to my question: Will developing for the Agenda be any simpler than for the Palm because it is using Linux? If so, I'll switch in a New York minute ("compatibility" is not an issue for me). (My other question is, HowTF am I supposed to get a free spreadsheet on my Palm?)
--

Re:No syncing with Linux

With 8 meg ROM and 2 meg RAM, how can you add your own 'stuff' to the box, other than data.

If they want to support the Open Source market, they have to have something to sync *TO*. And, at this time there are MANY different things to sync to.

One thing that has NOT been pressed is the GPL in the embedded market. Here [kenseglerdesigns.com] is an example of an embedded GPL box where no source has been released. To date, no action on getting the source.

It would be nice to think the GPL/Linux will protect developers who choose to develop for Unix-based PDA's, but without access to source, you run the risk of being Steve'd...just like the Newton developers did.

Missing Information

The one tidbit of information I couldn't find is the expected battery life. My Handspring Visor, with the energy conserving PalmOS, lasts for weeks on end on two AAAs. I know that beasts with bigger processors, conventional OS's, etc. tend to suck up power more quickly. This seems to fall into this latter category.

Re:Linux is not for the handheld market.

Its funny to see a slashdot user say that linux isn't good for some platform.

I've been a slashdot user for some time, and I use Linux regularly. I also have owned a Palm since before I started using Linux, and I have come to the conclusion that the explosion in Palm sales hasn't been due to whizbang features, good software, or the accessibility of the OS source. It's been about style, and popularity.

If all it took to win in the PDA market was a fast processor and some impress-your-friends functionality ("Look! The Star Wars trailer! Right here in the palm of my hand!") then WindowsCE would have walked away with the whole market years ago. Instead, Palm has introduced models at the low end to woo teenagers and college students, and models at the high end to attract fashion-conscious yuppies. You can even get a kit to mount your Palm in your luxury SUV or your golf cart. (I'm not kidding.) The OS is simple enough to use that you don't even have to worry about closing applications when you're done with them. Windows CE has had this problem until the most recent version. Desktop concepts of cascading menus, movable windows, and multiple-button clicking (how do I right-tap or middle-tap in X?) are lost on a pad-based device.

People already complain that too much software for Linux is really "Linux86," since it doesn't support SPARC, Alpha, or PPC. The pocket arena has a lot more limitations than any of those other desktop/server platforms. Don't expect to dump gcc on this thing and be able to compile programs right out of the box. In fact, with only 8MB of room, you wouldn't be able to fit very much source at all. Guess you'll have to hope it supports NFS mounting and networking -- over its serial port.

Very promising, but with some snares.

This device looks very promising as a Linux PDA. While I've seen plenty of posts from people whining about it's specs (66MHz CPU, 8MB RAM/2MB ROM, 16 shade greyscale screen at 240x160), they seem to be missing the point. The base model will cost $149! The iPAQ, Yopy, and other Linux-capable WinCE machines cost an order of magnitude more than $149.

That's it's strength, to me. I'd much rather have a small, cheap unit like this with OK battery life than an expensive, big (size and weight) and battery eating hog.
It's also as cheap as Palm and Visors cheapest offerings, but with a considerably faster CPU, more RAM and a bigger screen. Such is my argument (sans bigger screen) for another Linux capable PDA, the Helio [myhelio.com].

I think it's pretty silly to put X on it, but I wouldn't call it a mistake, per se. Why? Because you can always take X off and put in Nano-X, Squeak, W, or Microwindows in instead.

Now, does anyone want to help me port Squeak [squeak.org] to the Linux framebuffer for use on a PDA like this, so we can dump X?

Port an OS

So why develop a Linux PDA? My not just port Linux to existing PDAs? Well, it is being done for some PocketPC devices, I understand, but what about for PalmOS?

Somehow I doubt PalmOS hardware could run Linux since it is slow. Linux is designed for a system with an always-on CPU, right?

Re:Does Not Sync With Linux!

According to this [agendacomputing.com] link, the bundled cdrom has:

CD-ROM Software: QuickSync for Linux and Windows PC

Since a number of their other claims seem to conflict with the current state of the product as well (e.g., handwriting recognition doesn't seem to be supported yet), I'd give them the benifit of the doubt. They'll almost certainly support Linux synchronization by the release date.

Linux is not for the handheld market.

This device is pretty comparable to a Palm (up to 8MB RAM, 240x160 16-grey display) but the fact that it runs Linux sets it apart from the other $149 PDA's on the market. However, you'll find that Linux is no better than CE when it comes to handheld applications. Sure, you get decent power and an open source (insert obligatory drooling here) operating system, but what else? The few applications written for this thing are HUGE compared to Palm apps. 96KB for a Minesweeper game, instead of 20KB on a Palm. 200KB for a scientific calculator? You'll burn through that RAM much quicker than with a Palm, and there aren't even as many apps for it (yet).

Remember that Microsoft promised compatibility between Win32 apps and WinCE apps, due to some libraries and function calls being similar. Why, then, do WinCE apps lag so far behind Palm apps in breadth of functionality and quality?

Not to mention that for the Linux geeks here that love to tinker with hardware, the Agenda VR3 offers just serial and IR ports for communication and expandability. The keyboard looks every bit as cheap as the one made for the Palm-ripoff Royal DaVinci [royal.com], which can be had for about $100.

Sorry, folks. Open source isn't taking Palm's place any time soon.

I have seen these

I got a chance to see these at LinuxWorld in San Jose earlier this week. Here are my impressions:

• The devices are notacably smaller than the Palm III series, and even a little smaller than the Palm Vs. They are as thick as the Palm III, however.
• The devices use an unusual RISC processor for the CPU
• The devices use the FLTK toolkit, and any FLTK application for the Linux desktop should port reasonably easily to the Agenda.
• The application they were showing at the LWCE was a Bash shell, probably to prove these are really Linux machines.
• Input is via a on-screen QWERTY keyboard which is part of the display at the bottom. I hope it is possible to replace this keyboard by a Fitaly [fitaly.com] keyboard, or by one of the various handwriting reconition techniques.
• The devices will have 2 megs of flash and 8 mega of ram. The person showing off the unit was talking about it being possible to use the flash to store application and possibly data.
• The devices are expected to retail for $150
• They promise to release them around October

Also, PocketLinux [pocketlinux.com] was also at LWCE, and has struck a deal to make Linux available for a competing handheld computer (I forget the exact brand name).

- Sam

Re:Why is everyone afraid of 802.11?

As soon as this [xircom.com] comes out in 802.11 format, I would seriously consider buying it -- and a Handspring Visor to go with it. It's expected this fall.