Women CS Majors Declining

/ writes, "According to a Wired interview with Dr. Anita Borg (her real name) of the Center for Women and Technology, the number of women majoring in CS has dropped considerably of late, as those in the field likely already know. She gives her thoughts on the causes and entertains some solutions."

Well Maybe,

Actually, a better statistic is whether Women CS majors are declining at the same rates as Men. I mean, most of the schools I talk to are losing attendees to the industry faster than they can enroll.

This is a bigger problem, for the schools anyhow, than only one group reducing. If , however, the attendance of women is becoming smaller at a different proportion than Men or other groups, then there is a problem.

Chris DiBona
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG

First problem: What is the problem?

Off topic question; do people leave the subject lines to be filled last, after they finish writing their post?

Anyway, several thoughts do occur on this topic:

By the time you focus/target 'women', it may already be too late. They will have been left behind and ignored for too many years, I suspect. In which case any change you effect now, won't be visible for at least a handful of years.

What can be done? The problem is so complex, I don't know that it can be characterized. We're trying to change the social structure in very many places if we want more women in technology and the sciences; we either grow girls more like men(which I suspect men don't want, otherwise selective pressure would have already done this), we change the social model in which women can contribute(a top down approach? Grassroots? I dunno), or we change the way girls see and interact with technology and science. The problem with the third option is that there is no visible path, just a visible endpoint. More women in the field.

How do we deal with the fact that girls get different treatment? Can family support overcome that? How about the way we raise our girls? Can we modify it so that they remain uniquely female but still fit into the current structure of society, at least until social changes force society to adapt? Or do we create an role for the females that they currently do not occupy, but can fit in very easily with very little change, again until society adapts to allow more opportunities for girls?

Am I being to shortsighted here? Or perhaps my view is to narrow? Are there other options and paths we can look at and pursue?

-AS

Difference between Men and Women

-
It's horrible to see what macho shit geeks posted.

Psychologist know that the biggest difference between Men and Women IS THE *** BRAIN ***.

Women can see more details, remember them, don't overlook things.

Men can think abstract, ie. have a better orientation sense.

When driving, a WOMEN should DRIVE,
while the MAN reads the map.

Women see streetsigns - men don't.
Men know they must turn left somewhere - women don't.

Women remember that Jack had a red tie on the last party, whilst her buddy doesn't even remember that Jack was there.

Just check these few examples and you'll see why it's harder for women to code,
and harder for men to see their own typing errors.

GOSH !! george./

Solutions? Why solutions?

That fewer women go into CS than men is not a problem to be dealt with, just a fact to be recognized.

Individual human beings should not be manipulated to shift demographic trends; it is immoral to do so. Incentives and media campaigns are as wrong as quotas.

So long as individual women are given the respect due their actual talent, without consideration of gender, there is nothing wrong with the fact that fewer of them choose to pursue education or work in any particular field.

As well complain that too few men are training for jobs as kindergarten teachers.

There are natural trends in any distinct human group. Fighting these trends is as unjust and damaging to individual persons as pigeonholing exceptional individuals into stereotypical roles.

Women CS students at CMU

I am a CMU student, and the School of Computer Science has made an effort to admit more female CS students (beginning last year). The result is a lot of unqualified female CS students. My roommate's girlfriend is one.

Many of them know nothing about computers--there is a new intro course that teaches the most basic of basics (things that no other respectable CS school would find necessary to teach). It's only open to CS students, and the class is filled almost entirely with female students.

Just my observation--I have no problem with female students in CS or otherwise. I do have a problem with underqualified students. It might turn out that the decision was a correct one. The women might be better than the men when they graduate, and simply have to overcome the lack of CS interest in high school.

I suppose it remains to be seen.

--
Max V.

Re:Well Maybe,

Actually, a better statistic is whether Women CS majors are declining at the same rates as Men. I mean, most of the schools I talk to are losing attendees to the industry faster than they can enroll.

Anita Borg was talking about a decline in percentage, not in absolute numbers.

-- Abigail

So what? Men and Women are not the same.

I'm not saying women have no place in the CS world, or in any way saying they should avoid it, and I definately encourage anyone, regardless of sex, to persue what interests them.

on that note..

our society seems to be blind to the fact that, men & women are DIFFERENT. Statistically, we *DO* think differently. The generalization about women being more for details, men being more for abstract thinking is true as a STATISTIC, not a rule.

Am I saying women can't handle CS? No.. I'm saying that statistically, it doesn't interest them.

Do I think women shoudl be paid less than men for doing the same job? No. Do I think a CS position should be filled or not based on sex? Absolutely not....
but our society doesn't have to keep obsessing over why EVERY DAMN OCCUPATION isn't 50% male, 50% female. it will *NEVER* be that way.

Current Attitudes and Stereotypes

Throughout most of the posts there are so many stereotypes about women just being assumed as fact. There are lots of women out there with previous computer experience before even walking in a cs classroom. Before I took the *wonderful* required Introduction to CS at my college, I already had experience in web authoring, building computers and programming. And the reason I'm into computers other than something like English is because I enjoy working on new problems and am techinal minded.

For example, my fiance and I are working on a mail client. Who's doing 90% of the coding? I am. Why? I can program better than him. Gender has nothing to do with that. He's just into different aspects of computers.

As far as the enviroment of computer science being hostile to women. I've personally experienced out right hostility (like some of the posts), but also I've met a lot of people who don't care what race or gender you are, just that you can do the job.

Also women aren't going into computer science because they see a table of geeks and run the other way. The only person I've ever met that chose a major based on if his or her friends were in that one, was a man. Does that mean now that men just briefly think about their majors and don't give it any thought?

Comments like "women don't know anything about computers" or "women are genetically incapable of working in techinal fields" just show to me that some people out there just don't get it. Women weren't originally allowed to go to college because our brains were too "small." Yet Albert Einstein had one of the smallest, compact brains ever recorded.

One of the apparently rare women in computers.

What about male supermodels?

I could probably name 10 women supermodels without even THINKING about it, and I'm sure women could too (ruling out the sex appeal argument), so why is it that I cannot name eve ONE male supermodel? I think this is an important issue that needs to be addressed immediately, I think men should be able to be supermodels, too, and I don't think they're being encouraged enough at a young age. If more boys were taught by their parents that they could be beautiful too, maybe we'd see a bit more equality in the supermodelling field.

very good read

When I was in college, and again latter in uni there were *very few* women in any of the three majors (CS, CIS, MIS) in the department so if the numbers are going down then there must be none at all left now. Fortunately that isn't the case... I was talking to someone on campus at uni last week and he mentioned there were about thirty women in the program now; that kinda matches what little I remember of the incoming class of frosh the summer after my "last" year ;} there were a LOT of young ladies in those tour groups and early summer classes.

I have to agree with a lot of what Dr. Borg is saying here, and it's really pathetic that this is the case. I can't think of a single women in my graduating class that wasn't in the top handfull of students, ditto the class before me. I generally found that the women in my classes and the ones I work with now are the better engineers, certainly on several occasions I can look at a project group that had maybe four people and say that the women on the group did more than their 25% of the share. It was always interesting to watch the group when it was say four guys and see how things got done, then watch those same four guys on the next project when one of the ladies in the area got added to their group... there was a very subtle change in the group dynamics and a very severe change in the quality of the work. Now I know in a couple cases it was because the guys were ashamed that a "girl" did better work than they did... but then I had also worked with that young lady before, they didn't have a chance - she out-classed them.

I wish there was a more natural balance of men:women in hard core computer science - and not because they're a welcome sight after staring at code for hours on end or sitting in design meetings that just won't stop - it's because their very presence in the group alters the balance and their different perspective and methodology is always beneficial.

Re:Women CS students at CMU

I am a CMU student, and the School of Computer Science has made an effort to admit more female CS students (beginning last year). The result is a lot of unqualified female CS students. My roommate's girlfriend is one. Many of them know nothing about computers--there is a new intro course that teaches the most basic of basics (things that no other respectable CS school would find necessary to teach). It's only open to CS students, and the class is filled almost entirely with female students.

I would agree with you...if there were stronger CS programs in high schools, to expose computer science to people who don't necessarily have a "natural interest" (quotes for a reason) in programming, Linux configuration, &c. For some people, especially women, their first exposure to computer programming comes in college. And, in Freshman computer science courses, they don't necesarily pick up such wonderful hints as:

• When writing in declarative languages (C, Pascal, FORTRAN), put your commands in sequential order
• How some basic logic functions (such as "or") work
• Characters have numerical values, too, and can be compared against each other.

I picked these these things up when I was 8, because I actively sought them out when I was 8. I was never taught any of this in HS, nor was I expected to learn any of this in HS. None of them were taught in freshman CS either, at least where I went to school; instead, they were pretty much assumed.

With this in mind, I'm quite glad that CMU has a structure whereby persons with little prior exposure to computer science, but demonstrated relevant ability (i.e., mathematical), can get a jump-start.

Fun fact: Georgia Tech's manditory Freshman computer science course teaches how to think about programming, including writing pseudocode, but the students don't do any programming. Learning how to actually program comes later; but by that time, they can concentrate on the specifics of the language rather than on the basics. I'm not sure if this is a better approach, but it seems to work pretty well.

Says who?

Prior experience in computer science is not and has never been an entrance requiement at CMU SCS. It may seem that way because it has gotten increasingly competitive over the years and the incomming freshmen know more every year (and think they know even more than that - incuding the ability to jude the qualifications of their peers - without the benifit of any of the information in thier applications ;) But the intention has always been that a smart, creative person should be able to do well in the program - even if they weren't hacking 8086 in the womb. How do I know this? Because I've discussed this very topic with the undergraduate dean!

But ask yourself, honestly, if this percieved injustice doesn't affect your treatment of female classmates. As a woman who was admitted to CMU SCS on *excellent* qualifications, I had no time for those boys in my class who had snotty shitty attitudes for no good reason. However, some of the egos one encounters can be a blow to the self-esteem, and it can take some time and support to realize that it's all just hot air.

Sorry if this is a bit harsh, I'm in a hurry, no time to "nice it up"

Re:Well Maybe,

Actually, a better statistic is whether Women CS majors are declining at the same rates as Men...

...If , however, the attendance of women is becoming smaller at a different proportion than Men or other groups, then there is a problem.

There was a story [slashdot.org] about that very subject here last August. Unfortunately, the link to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch [postnet.com] story it referred to no longer works, and I don't have the patience to wait for the archive search page to load. As far as I can remember, the premise was that the percentage of women in CS programs was declining. The evidence seemed to be more factual and less anecdotal than the Anita Borg interview we're discussing now.

If the percentage of female CS majors is what's declining, this might be the reason:

1) The people(of both sexes) who are computer-crazy are going into CS at the same rate as always. No problem here.
2) However, any decline in the percentage of women could be due to a huge increase in the number of men who have gone into CS in recent years, many of whom might not really be all that talented, but who want to go "where the money is" (in their perception).

To wit: 15 years ago, you might have a class of size X, with M males and F females. Now, you see classes of size X + (3 * M), with (4 * M) males and F females. The women are still there, in the same numbers, and they're just as interested as they always were. The extra (3 * M) men, on the other hand, are studying CS because they want the prestige and (they hope) the money that goes with earning the hot-degree-of-the-moment.

Remember a few years back, when MBA enrolment ballooned because it was the hot degree to have? When students viewed it as a ticket to prestigious management jobs and ridulously inflated salaries? Remember a few years further back, when the same thing happened with law degrees? Computer Science has been the "degree-in-demand" for a while now, and as soon as the next big degree appears on the radar, things will settle back down.

Maybe men are more likely to study a field that isn't really well matched to their interests, provided that the potential payoff (in terms of money and prestige) is high enough. Even if other people say to these guys "Hey, what are you studying CS for? You're much better at English...", maybe they aren't as likely to listen.

And just because no post would be complete without anecdotal evidence... :)

I am a female CS major at the University of Toronto [utoronto.ca]. Despite the fact that my favourite (and best) subject was math right up until grade 12, I decided to enroll in a humanities BA. I couldn't figure out why I hated school so much all of a sudden, and eventually dropped out. 4 years later, I returned, switched to CS, and have been insanely happy ever since. The gender balance here seems to be pretty good (at least for the 1st and 2nd year courses), but I've overheard enough conversations between male students in the computer lab to conclude that many of them are in CS for reasons other than aptitude or interest. Personally, I wouldn't mind making tons of money, but my main motivation is that if I'm going to be in the working for 30-40 years, then I want to be doing something I enjoy.

Re:Well Maybe, There is no Problem

I would hardly describe Anita Borg as a "man hating feminist". nor would I describe her as wanting to bend the world to her will.

I am not denying in the least people's right to choose their profession, but I see nothing wrong to removing barriers that have nothing to do with ability that are placed in the way of certain students. these do exist, mistake me not. of course, letting in a "disadvantaged" student with lower qualifications is never the way to go...

Lea

So fix it (here's how)

Well, here I am, 20 years old, up at 1:30am doing electronics homework (I'm a computer engineering major). I've had job offers that would let me start TOMORROW at $38,000/yr and allow me to finish my degree part time. You know, the only thing that really keeps me here is the fact that I'm around 25,000 people my own age to have fun with. It's sure not the sleepless nights, exam stress or lame labs and projects that keep me here. Let alone the HUGE expense of out-of-state tuition. The degree is nice to have, but really not necessary. The simple fact is, there's an awful lot of good reasons to move to industry rather than stay in school. And there's an awful lack of good reasons to stay in school rather than go to work. So, what HAS to happen in order to keep more people in school, and taking these masochistic degree programs is that it has to be made worth their while. Quite simply, it has to be made either more financially beneficial or more fufilling than an entry level job. I'm here because I find it more fufilling than work. But I'm the notable exception; I'm very social, and that's not the case with a lot of CS/CpE majors out there. To them, the social scene is one more BAD thing about college.

Entry level jobs are less stressful than college. More profitable. Leave one with lots of free time (compared to someone taking 18 credit hours, anyways). And don't involve keeping crazy hours. Lots of people just don't wanna bother, because they don't need to. So... if you really want more people majoring in CS or CpE rather than going to work early, you have to make it more appealing.

As in, damn near FREE.

How about VA using some of it's newfound wealth to set up a scholarship program? IBM gives loads of money to higher education. So does DELL, and even Microsoft. For VA, setting up 10 $2,500/yr scholarships is pennies in a very big bucket. It looks great to the press, and even better to the recipients. You can pick people on whatever criteria you chose; grades, free software experience, advocacy, or most-shameless-grub-for-money (me! me!).

The simple fact is, a non-graduate can be rich by 25 if they're any good and end up getting stock options before their company IPO's. Your best and brightest KNOW this, and it draws a great number of them away from universities, because they COST money, and only reward you with stress, debt, and lost sleep. If you want more people to graduate, make school the better option; one of the easiest ways to do that is to make it cheap. A VA Linux Systems Scholarship Program would certainly help.

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