Comment Re:never too late... (Score 1) 1212
Actually that's why we have a Republic instead of a true democracy.
When I read that, I didn't know you meant. So I googled "republic democracy" and this is what I got on my first hit:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3388
Which is one excellent article that basically repeats what I said about the evils of democracy.
IMHO, regardless what the US appears to be on paper, I say it is a democracy in practice - judging by tangible results. The principles embodied in the constitution, which I admire, mean little in today's world as they have not been upheld over time. If they had been respected, I wouldn't be complaining and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
The forces of democracy along with a perverse form of capitalism have slowly whittled away at constitutional ideals like personal liberty and the pursuit of happiness over the years, ingeniously finding ways to bypass them, find loopholes, etc..
My bad -- but my original point still stands. People that don't vote are the worse enemies of any state that democratically elects it's leaders.
Well, I thought my previous arguments might make you think twice about that conclusion, but apparently not. People don't vote because they don't believe in the system, feel powerless to change it, and are disillusioned by it. More about this later.
"So called freedom loving countries"? Do you have a problem with us?
Yes, I have a problem with it. I have a problem when countries that profess to love freedom are acting to extinquish freedoms at every opportunity. Not only the freedoms of their own citizens, but those of countries beyond their own boundaries too.
Have you ever read 1984? Look around you...
How aware you are of this kind of behavior is a matter of personal choice. For every example that I see, I'm sure there are a thousand other instances happening that I never find out about. I won't write a book about it here, but I assume you can think of a few pertinent examples yourself without my help.
Perhaps you should move to China or North Korea if you don't like "freedom loving countries".
I love freedom loving countries. Can you tell me about any? I can see millions of people that love freedom, and the best example of these people I can think of is the free software community. Most other people I know or have met offline also love their freedom. I don't know of any countries that practice anything close to it, though, all I see are more and more laws and restrictions and bigger and bigger governments.
Yes, I agree that the US or Europe or whatever is probably better than China or North Korea, but the distinction in my mind is not as clear as it is in yours. That's partly because I have never lived in these countries and know that what I have heard about them is colored by the media.
In the same spirit, I'd probably agree that Sun Microsystems is less evil that Microsoft. Doesn't mean I love Sun, nor do I want them to take over the world.
The world ain't black and white, nor goood vs. evil the way G.W. paints it to be.
I pity you for having no faith in our way of life.
You are not the only one. I pity myself too, and in a way envy you. I would love to have faith in it. I did, when I was younger but have seen too much injustice to hang on to that faith.
And I think that's the main difference between your opinion and mine: the crux of our debate. You believe in the system, at least partially. You believe it can work, even though you probably recognize that it's imperfect.
As for me, while I don't see everything as completely dark and depressing, I do not have anywhere near your hope and optimism about the world and politics.
There is too much concentration of power.
You probably can't understand that or think I'm brainwashed. Your loss.
No, I see where you're coming from, and I can see that you're not brainwashed. We are all ignorant to some extent. You have seen and been through things that I haven't, and vice versa.
I'm not debating you with a "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. Just exchanging ideas, and hope we're both learning something from each other.
There's freedom in cyberspace? WTF are you smoking?
The same thing you were smoking when you compared the US with China.
It's a matter of relative freedom.
Sure, what you said about internet control is true, and I only see it getting worse.
But for me, the internet is the best thing that ever happened to me. Not just for me, I think it's the best thing that has happened to the world in a long long time.
It's destroying borders, allowing people to share ideas across the world.
You and I are having this discussion, we're probably six thousand miles away from each oher, and come from different cultures.
The government of China for example is trying its damndest to keep its people from learning about the politics of other countries and their criticisms of China.
I suppose you think those non-Patriotic freedom seekers are enemies of that state too? Don't answer that, it was a cheap sarcastic shot that I couldn't resist. But I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised if some of their countrymen thought so? (Please think about that one for more than 2 seconds).
I don't believe in patriotism, only in my freedom. If the country I live in displays meaningful respect for truth, justice and freedom of all human beings, then maybe I would consider fighting for it, but strictly only in self defense. Not in the type of arrogant pro-active "we are the saviors of the world" attitude that the US has displayed not only recently but historically as well.
I have neighbors on farms all around me and to the best of my knowledge nobody bothers them.
Yeah, I'm sure that when the draft comes along they will ignore all the farmers. And of course the IRS will have nothing to do with you just so long as you don't volunteer to pay taxes. Of course that is just their duty and responsibility to their country (hint - think China again for some perspective on that last statement).
Leave it to us on slashdot to solve all the world's problems, eh?
When I read that, I didn't know you meant. So I googled "republic democracy" and this is what I got on my first hit:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3388
Which is one excellent article that basically repeats what I said about the evils of democracy.
IMHO, regardless what the US appears to be on paper, I say it is a democracy in practice - judging by tangible results. The principles embodied in the constitution, which I admire, mean little in today's world as they have not been upheld over time. If they had been respected, I wouldn't be complaining and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
The forces of democracy along with a perverse form of capitalism have slowly whittled away at constitutional ideals like personal liberty and the pursuit of happiness over the years, ingeniously finding ways to bypass them, find loopholes, etc..
My bad -- but my original point still stands. People that don't vote are the worse enemies of any state that democratically elects it's leaders.
Well, I thought my previous arguments might make you think twice about that conclusion, but apparently not. People don't vote because they don't believe in the system, feel powerless to change it, and are disillusioned by it. More about this later.
"So called freedom loving countries"? Do you have a problem with us?
Yes, I have a problem with it. I have a problem when countries that profess to love freedom are acting to extinquish freedoms at every opportunity. Not only the freedoms of their own citizens, but those of countries beyond their own boundaries too.
Have you ever read 1984? Look around you...
How aware you are of this kind of behavior is a matter of personal choice. For every example that I see, I'm sure there are a thousand other instances happening that I never find out about. I won't write a book about it here, but I assume you can think of a few pertinent examples yourself without my help.
Perhaps you should move to China or North Korea if you don't like "freedom loving countries".
I love freedom loving countries. Can you tell me about any? I can see millions of people that love freedom, and the best example of these people I can think of is the free software community. Most other people I know or have met offline also love their freedom. I don't know of any countries that practice anything close to it, though, all I see are more and more laws and restrictions and bigger and bigger governments.
Yes, I agree that the US or Europe or whatever is probably better than China or North Korea, but the distinction in my mind is not as clear as it is in yours. That's partly because I have never lived in these countries and know that what I have heard about them is colored by the media.
In the same spirit, I'd probably agree that Sun Microsystems is less evil that Microsoft. Doesn't mean I love Sun, nor do I want them to take over the world.
The world ain't black and white, nor goood vs. evil the way G.W. paints it to be.
I pity you for having no faith in our way of life.
You are not the only one. I pity myself too, and in a way envy you. I would love to have faith in it. I did, when I was younger but have seen too much injustice to hang on to that faith.
And I think that's the main difference between your opinion and mine: the crux of our debate. You believe in the system, at least partially. You believe it can work, even though you probably recognize that it's imperfect.
As for me, while I don't see everything as completely dark and depressing, I do not have anywhere near your hope and optimism about the world and politics.
There is too much concentration of power.
You probably can't understand that or think I'm brainwashed. Your loss.
No, I see where you're coming from, and I can see that you're not brainwashed. We are all ignorant to some extent. You have seen and been through things that I haven't, and vice versa.
I'm not debating you with a "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. Just exchanging ideas, and hope we're both learning something from each other.
There's freedom in cyberspace? WTF are you smoking?
The same thing you were smoking when you compared the US with China.
It's a matter of relative freedom.
Sure, what you said about internet control is true, and I only see it getting worse.
But for me, the internet is the best thing that ever happened to me. Not just for me, I think it's the best thing that has happened to the world in a long long time.
It's destroying borders, allowing people to share ideas across the world.
You and I are having this discussion, we're probably six thousand miles away from each oher, and come from different cultures.
The government of China for example is trying its damndest to keep its people from learning about the politics of other countries and their criticisms of China.
I suppose you think those non-Patriotic freedom seekers are enemies of that state too? Don't answer that, it was a cheap sarcastic shot that I couldn't resist. But I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised if some of their countrymen thought so? (Please think about that one for more than 2 seconds).
I don't believe in patriotism, only in my freedom. If the country I live in displays meaningful respect for truth, justice and freedom of all human beings, then maybe I would consider fighting for it, but strictly only in self defense. Not in the type of arrogant pro-active "we are the saviors of the world" attitude that the US has displayed not only recently but historically as well.
I have neighbors on farms all around me and to the best of my knowledge nobody bothers them.
Yeah, I'm sure that when the draft comes along they will ignore all the farmers. And of course the IRS will have nothing to do with you just so long as you don't volunteer to pay taxes. Of course that is just their duty and responsibility to their country (hint - think China again for some perspective on that last statement).
Leave it to us on slashdot to solve all the world's problems, eh?
