... that we get a technical topic to discuss, but instead all we get is YAGS (Yet Another Gripe Session). This is supposed to be a forum for geeks, yet it sounds more like a knitting club for old women (no offence to old women, but there is a caricature portrayed in "The Music Man" of older women coming together to gossip and gripe about the local town that seems fitting to my point).

If we aren't going to chat about the technical issues surrounding DX12, what it has to offer, what cards are likely to implement it, then who will? Tom's Hardware, Anandtech, and half a dozen other places allow chats of reviews, but they don't cover all the geek stuff so that leaves us here where we prefer to relive some real or imagined slight, bicker over preferred widgets etc.

so sad...

Are you dis'ing teachers? What is wrong with being a teacher? You are employable because of them, so don't think that being a teacher is any less worthy than being a programmer.

BTW I write enterprise level applications for one of the world leading engineering companies - in Delphi. I out-code the companies C# programmers every day of the week, so don't tell me that Delphi isn't up for it.

Oh, also BTW: Delphi programmers still look down their noses at VB programmers in much the same way that C programmers look down their noses at Delphi programmers (and practically everyone else too). It's an entrenched pecking order based on the apparent power of the language. Don't feel bad about it, I don't. ;)

In the immortal words of Weird Al Yankovic: "Everything you know is wrong...". Yeah, some of it was right in the Noughties, but we are now half a decade from then and Delphi has moved on. You should too.

While we are still waiting on Linux to be reintroduced (Kylix really isn't the solution you're looking for) you can get to Linux through Lazarus, but apart from that we target all the still viable platforms except Windows RT (though I think that is stretching "viable" to its limits). Perhaps if MS had allowed more than .Net apps to work on it (like they did with the ugly but-it-will-still-run-MS-Office hack) there would be sufficient apps around for it to be relevant. Hmmm giving Delphi (et al.) that platform to target apps for may have saved RT - ironic!

Yeah, I am a Pascal (Delphi) person. I admit it. I have tried other languages but I still prefer Delphi. I like Python, but don't write enough trivial code to really make use of it. There is no way I would use it on a 100,000+ line application.

I was trained in C# and can't for the life of me work out why I would want to use it over Delphi. I am over 3x more productive in Delphi than I am in C#, and I have proven to be more productive than a team of 3 C# programmers where I work.

As an application programmer I prefer the running speed of the applications I write over the slowness of Java and interpreted languages. The last time I tried C++ it felt too much like C with objects hacked into it, and I really don't like how slow C is to develop in.

I am happy that others like these other languages, but I just can't find a compelling reason to put Delphi down for them.

I think we need to focus on the question at hand.

Most developers have a language preference. Whatever language you are most experienced in is usually the one you develop in the fastest (with a few rare exceptions). You can also expect to be more accustomed to the syntax, libraries etc. of your preferred language. The question wasn't "what language do you prefer?" it was "Is Pascal underrated?".

Given the comments that went along with the question I think any rational person, weighing Pascal's current standing against the other major languages would have to consider that it is. It still may not prompt you to use the language, but it might prompt a few to have a look at what is new.

I think the motive behind this post is to get all the ex-Delphi devs to go and have another look. If you have moved on to "more modern" languages it may surprise you to find that there are few if any features missing in the latest version. If you are in academics it may prompt you to use Delphi/Pascal as a teaching tool again (it was the language of choice for a long time because of its intuitive and accessible structure). If you are a sole programmer wanting to target an app to multiple platforms it is definitely worth looking at. Yes, there is Java, however Delphi XE7 is the first language that I know of that deals neatly with the UI differences between platforms, and even between form factors (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?...) let me know if another IDE has anything like this? (seriously, let me know!).

One other thing to consider: C is (according to some admittedly debatable language rating websites) the #1 most popular programming language, yet even C11 hasn't evolved as far as Pascal. Delphi is called, old, out-dated, past its prime. Its death has been called so many times Resurrection Man ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R... ) is amazed at its survival. Yet it has practically every feature found in modern languages and its popularity is increasing (if you believe Embarcadero).

Is it underrated. I program in it, I hear the comments about it, and yeah - practically everybody underrates it.

Doesn't the existence of duplicate patents invalidate the whole premise of the patent? Protection for a limited time in exchange for enriching the public domain. If you ask me, I think the existence of a prior expired patent should invalidate any covering patent because of prior art. I am surprised that given the patent framework this is not the ultimate defense against patent trolls.

This is the same as the trouble we had with the Ozone layer which has mysteriously healed itself, either that or the CFCs flushed out of the atmophere faster than prunes through a short grandmother. We observe a trend for 5 minutes and predict the next century on it.

I've heard the retoric from both sides claiming what the norm was a century, millennium, eon etc, ago. The thing is, I could bring a glass of water into a room unobserved and the next day get any scientist to hazard the temperature the water was when I brought it in. They wouldn't be able to tell me if it were hotter, colder or the same temperature as it is now, yet we are supposed to believe all these models based on unobserved "facts" with hypothesis about what sediment, icebergs etc. look like when cross-sectioned and climate data that goes well beyond the observed and recorded facts. The only firm conclusion that can be drawn is that scientists can't be trusted to either get it right, indicate that their statements are highly dubious or even to tell the truth about the data they've collected!

The world could end tomorrow, but not one scientist is more enlightened on the subject than the wildest fantasy writer. They ask us to put our faith in their arm and disavow God, but don't compare their track records with the prophets!!! Personally I will continue to be prudent, listen to the prophets and ignore as much as the media will let me all this hokum both for and against climate change.

Practically every statement you made needs correcting so I will just quote all your errors in one place, then correct them below:

Your assertion of suckiness is based on the remainder of your statements which are flawed, my corrections will continuously refute your claim.

Actually, slate form factors (i.e. no keyboard) were around in 2001. I've been using slate style tablet PCs for over 5 years.

I could have bought a tablet PC that didn't require a pen, but that system didn't make for good handwriting. The iPad doesn't either.

You are almost right about the hard drive, flash hard drives weren't available in 2001, but they started to be used over a year before the iPad came out - they were a horendously expensive option at the time so I decided against it.

Every tablet PC had an IBM compatible (that includes AMD) CPU and they still do - it allows them to use any software written for Windows. Some use the new Atom processor, but I prefer a powerful processor and the new i5 seems to be a sweetspot.

Most tablets ran the Tablet edition or Vista and now Windows 7 - all of which were designed to be used by pen and with Windows 7, multi-touch too.

Slate form factor tablet PCs often weigh less than 1.5kg - my current one does, and so did the one before it - and they had A4 size screens! I have carried my tablets around, using them for hours and I am no muscle man.

I often tout the benefit of a tablet PC over paper, it's just as easy, has undo, allows me to move text I have written really simply. I can copy diagrams as easily as my lecturers could draw them. My work is backed up as soon as I arive home as One Note syncs with all my other PCs in the house. I can print and markup, take a picture and markup or even copy text and mark it up with my handwriting, on the page, in real time as the lecturer progresses through his lecture without breaking a sweat. I have over 3000 books on my tablet PC and read from the tablet every day.

My current tablet PC with a stock standard battery got me through an 8 hour tutorial on the first day. When that battery got old I replaced it with a larger one that gets me through 10 hours.

The iPad is not a tablet PC as it does not make minimum specification as defined by Microsoft who released the tablet PC in 2001. If you want to pin a claim to fame on the iPad, it is the best Apple Newton ever created, and Apple Newtons were first released in 1991

The iPad succeeds because it is NOT used in the workplace much. Battery life is irrelevent if you can't do what needs to be done, do it too slowly or haven't the screen realestate to capitalise on the portability. There are some workplaces where the iPad will work, but not in any place I have worked.

If you had done a little research or spoken from real experience you could have saved me writing this correction. Please think of others before you post.

Please become informed.

There are hundreds of apps specifically designed for the tablet, there are millions more that can be used on it but are not specifically tablet oriented. I will concede the point that Microsoft didn't write them all, there are dozens of major software vendors and hundreds of independents that wrote apps specifically for the tablet PC. I will let your imagination come up with a suitably large number for all those who authored regular windows apps which can ALL be used on a tablet PC.

To apply the same benchmark to the iPad:

There may be some apps developed specifically for the iPad, but most were developed for the iPod and scaled up. There may be major third party software vendors writing for the iPad (I don't know of any, please enlighten me). There are thousands of indies though (again, if you include the iPod apps that are scaled up).

One question though: why rewrite something like outlook for the tablet PC when the original works perfectly well on it as is?

Three years ago when I was looking for a tablet PC I discovered a brand that was marketed to the medical profession. It was used to go around the ward and make notes, link it back to a central server and pull information from that server.

Now they are getting iPads instead. Only problem is getting information into the system. A pad and pencil was the old system, easy to use standing up with one hand under the pad and the other jotting notes.

Writing on the iPad is out, so they have to type, so either they find somewhere to rest the iPad, or type one handed - not much difference in speed because they are not typists. It takes about 10 time longer than writing on a pad of paper, or about 10 times as long as using the tablet PC equivalent (yes, that's right the tablet PC fit their previous system, but with the benefit of instant updates and information on demand).

The iPad they are now getting is giving them information on demand and instant update at the expense of getting information into the system.

In this case the iPad is false economy as the cost in doctor's time is more than the difference in price between an iPad and a tablet PC.

It is important not to overstate the iPad's case or these sorts of bad decisions are likely to be made regularly.

You're kidding right?

You bought an iPad because you could mail it in an envelope!

Who does that? It's a marketing gimmick - though you could, nobody in their right mind would do that.

I've seen "type on an onscreen keyboard". It was followed up by "have a nosebleed" trying to keep up with discussion when even typing skills were failing keep pace with conversation. Then we came to the diagram... oh well, at least ignoring it allowed the typing to catch up a bit.

Guys, the iPad is not a tablet PC. It is a PDA, or if you have the latest version a smartphone in A5 size.

The iPad is designed to consume content, not to generate it. It is very good at what it was designed for, but as a tablet PC it is the worst I have used. I create content, so the iPad is not for me. I also consume content, but luckily my tablet PC can do that as well. That's what you expect from a machine you paid nearly $3k for (don't laugh, that was the going rate for a tablet PC in Australia 3 years ago that was "penabled"). I paid the premium because it did what I needed. I know others that would use it that way too, but the price was too much. Getting an iPad instead was cool, until they tried to do what I was doing on the tablet PC. Others don't care what I can do, and think the iPad is fantastic - good for them; they paid the right price for the functionality they wanted.

I think that Apple knows more about marketing. Any company that for a decade could sell computers that were less powerful for more money has some crazy marketing skills.

What Apple noticed with the iPad is that there are more consumers than producers. They took the tablet and cut out as much functionality as they could while still letting the user consume and got the price to a point where anyone with a little disposable income could afford it.

Thing is, this forum is filled with producers of content and to them the iPad is a toy. I get really annoyed when someone asks if I have an iPad when I take out my slate tablet PC. I calmly explain to them, no this is a tablet PC. The technology is only one decade old. The iPad is 2 decades old (remember the Apple Newton if you are old enough to do so).

I've use a slate tablet for 5 years - it got me through a Masters degree. I take it everywhere; work, church, school, seminars and meetings; anywhere where I expect to take notes or use the information stored on it. The ability to run any windows program is a HUGE plus (especially since I am a Delphi developer), and I find that OneNote with its synchronisation opens up a whole new dimension of usability.

I've seen friends use the iPad and am amazed at what they can put up with! The struggle to take notes, the limitations on software. The only thing it does well I could do on my PDA 12 years ago.

Sure it does have that Apple bling, but when you get down to actually doing stuff its pretty ordinary. The main reason they are so popular is that it looks like you should be able to do the same things on it as on a tablet PC and it is half (or less) of the price of a tablet. I've seen some touch-only tablet PCs and wouldn't buy them either. I need to take notes and a pen works better than anything else I have tried; touch is just too awkward (that's why I don't take notes on my smartphone if I have my tablet with me).

So when you say "try it" I can quite happily say that years of experience between touch and pen has taught me that the pen is mightier than the finger (unless all you want to do is consume). I am glad the iPad has lowered the cost of tablet PCs in Australia though - I can get a really sweet tablet for half the price I paid three years ago!

I have a Tablet PC so I was really intrigued by the calligraphy. First I have to configure my hardware to be pressure sensitive, except it doesn't recognise my tablet. :(

Saddest part: my tablet PC uses a Wacom tablet just like in their example!

Tell you what, be patient and in 80 years or less I will introduce you to Him.