Comment Re:Real Question (Score 1) 1091
I will try to answer a few of your questions. But some background first
>> 2) Ubiquitious child labor in the houshold cleaning, and other related service sectors. No real enforcement against it.
>> 3)Child slavery and bonded labor (think "indentured servitude" from your history classes, but much worse.) affecting millions in rural areas. Sporadic enforcement against it.
I myself am from a very remote village in India. Just to give you some ideas
- I have to walk for 3.5 miles to reach home from the nearest supposedly "drivable" road.
- I attended a primary school with no school-building, used "slate"s made of sliced rock for writing (renewable and environment frindly :-)) - exercise books are damn costly.. I was one of the very fortunate ones there whose dad earned more than $50/month. (Per capita income was a lot lower in the 80s and even lower in the remote, rural areas)..
So I think I can talk with some authenticity about the all-too-pervasive child labor - which is even more prevalent in the rural areas.
As part of our 10th class curriculum, we all were supposed to get at least two child labors literate. I sat with two of them every night for half an hour. Got them literate in about two monthes. Then I started pressing them for enrolling to the nearby primary "school". And voila - they stop coming to me. One day, I ran behind one of them and got hold of him.
- "Hey, why are you avoiding me"?
- "Well, you'll tell me to go to school".
- "Yeah. So what? Don't you want to go to school? You'll get new friends. And you will learn so many new things. You were quick in catching my lessons. You may even be so learned so as to become a Doctor or an Engineer one day."
- "Yeah. But how will I earn my food? I work in the daytime for food and $2/m. When will I go to school?"
That is where I learned first hand that it may be more oppressive for these guys to be forced out of the "child labor" than their present condition.
>> 1) Forced and *uncompensated* displacement of people from rural areas into the cities because of emminent domain siezure by authorities. (Official Indian government figures put the number of people affected by this at around 40Million since 1947. Activists estimate the number is much much higher.)
True. Laws exist, but are not always enforced. Receiving your compensation can take ages.
>> Open physical and verbal brutality of authorities
Very true. Goes hand in hand with the corruption.
Now let me come directly to your questions....
>>Q1: If the severe oppression underlying working conditions for the vast majority of Indians was removed, would outsourcing of "high-end" jobs to India cease to be profitable?
Maybe yes. But probably no. Just because of the same reason that the market prices in the US is still at similar levels to what it was during the boom in 1999, the prices in India will continue to remain at similar levels for quite some time irrespective of whether there is oppression or not.
Only 30-40% of the people in India actually participate in the economy. The rest is what forms the "Oppressed Class". Anybody employed in a "production unit" are hardly in this category (the numbers of bonded child labors in factories is not that huge compared to the population of India - I can assure you).
So removal of oppression means getting more people to join in the mainstream economy - and does not mean getting a car for everybody that he will demand $3000/month salary and that the cost of living will suddenly shoot up.
And by the way, the IT sector does not employ bonded labors?.
I believe another factor will drive the "profitability" of the outsourced jobs. People (including yours truly) who come from a $50-$100/month background will work as hard as necessary to ensure that the $600/mo jobs remain profitable for the industry. Many of you probably can not imagine the level of motivation of the guys in India.
>>Q2: How does the current practice of outsourcing of "high-end" jobs to India help Indians in the ongoing struggle to remove the severe oppression there?
When I was in India a year ago - I used to employ a servant for $50/month (nearly the sum my dad used to make in those days). So you see the trickle down effect in action here?
Now a few questions from me.
Q1: Why not do a thought experiment? Conditions are oppressive in India. So why not make the Indians come over here and compete for jobs? Why is it that the US government still gives only 65,000 H1B visas a year (with a minimum salary condition)? Are you guys afraid of competing in a level playing field? If the threat of terrorism is an issue, then you guys can come over to Bangalore in droves. I assure you that getting an Indian visa is a few thousand times easier than getting a US visa. You can count on the legendary Indian hospitality too.
Q2: Measured by the subsidies, the US is one of the most closed economies in the world. The farm subsidies alone (I think) are higher than Indian GDP. Why not abolish that, compete fairly and let everybody have what he deserves? Isn't that a part of the "American Dream"?
>> 2) Ubiquitious child labor in the houshold cleaning, and other related service sectors. No real enforcement against it.
>> 3)Child slavery and bonded labor (think "indentured servitude" from your history classes, but much worse.) affecting millions in rural areas. Sporadic enforcement against it.
I myself am from a very remote village in India. Just to give you some ideas
- I have to walk for 3.5 miles to reach home from the nearest supposedly "drivable" road.
- I attended a primary school with no school-building, used "slate"s made of sliced rock for writing (renewable and environment frindly
So I think I can talk with some authenticity about the all-too-pervasive child labor - which is even more prevalent in the rural areas.
As part of our 10th class curriculum, we all were supposed to get at least two child labors literate. I sat with two of them every night for half an hour. Got them literate in about two monthes. Then I started pressing them for enrolling to the nearby primary "school". And voila - they stop coming to me. One day, I ran behind one of them and got hold of him.
- "Hey, why are you avoiding me"?
- "Well, you'll tell me to go to school".
- "Yeah. So what? Don't you want to go to school? You'll get new friends. And you will learn so many new things. You were quick in catching my lessons. You may even be so learned so as to become a Doctor or an Engineer one day."
- "Yeah. But how will I earn my food? I work in the daytime for food and $2/m. When will I go to school?"
That is where I learned first hand that it may be more oppressive for these guys to be forced out of the "child labor" than their present condition.
>> 1) Forced and *uncompensated* displacement of people from rural areas into the cities because of emminent domain siezure by authorities. (Official Indian government figures put the number of people affected by this at around 40Million since 1947. Activists estimate the number is much much higher.)
True. Laws exist, but are not always enforced. Receiving your compensation can take ages.
>> Open physical and verbal brutality of authorities
Very true. Goes hand in hand with the corruption.
Now let me come directly to your questions....
>>Q1: If the severe oppression underlying working conditions for the vast majority of Indians was removed, would outsourcing of "high-end" jobs to India cease to be profitable?
Maybe yes. But probably no. Just because of the same reason that the market prices in the US is still at similar levels to what it was during the boom in 1999, the prices in India will continue to remain at similar levels for quite some time irrespective of whether there is oppression or not.
Only 30-40% of the people in India actually participate in the economy. The rest is what forms the "Oppressed Class". Anybody employed in a "production unit" are hardly in this category (the numbers of bonded child labors in factories is not that huge compared to the population of India - I can assure you).
So removal of oppression means getting more people to join in the mainstream economy - and does not mean getting a car for everybody that he will demand $3000/month salary and that the cost of living will suddenly shoot up.
And by the way, the IT sector does not employ bonded labors?.
I believe another factor will drive the "profitability" of the outsourced jobs. People (including yours truly) who come from a $50-$100/month background will work as hard as necessary to ensure that the $600/mo jobs remain profitable for the industry. Many of you probably can not imagine the level of motivation of the guys in India.
>>Q2: How does the current practice of outsourcing of "high-end" jobs to India help Indians in the ongoing struggle to remove the severe oppression there?
When I was in India a year ago - I used to employ a servant for $50/month (nearly the sum my dad used to make in those days). So you see the trickle down effect in action here?
Now a few questions from me.
Q1: Why not do a thought experiment? Conditions are oppressive in India. So why not make the Indians come over here and compete for jobs? Why is it that the US government still gives only 65,000 H1B visas a year (with a minimum salary condition)? Are you guys afraid of competing in a level playing field? If the threat of terrorism is an issue, then you guys can come over to Bangalore in droves. I assure you that getting an Indian visa is a few thousand times easier than getting a US visa. You can count on the legendary Indian hospitality too.
Q2: Measured by the subsidies, the US is one of the most closed economies in the world. The farm subsidies alone (I think) are higher than Indian GDP. Why not abolish that, compete fairly and let everybody have what he deserves? Isn't that a part of the "American Dream"?
