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Journal perfessor multigeek's Journal: Casualties in Iraq: Going to Get Much Worse 28

Journal by perfessor multigeek
Well, I told you so.
And it just gets worse from here.

Whatever the reasons, however we got there, we are now in a major war against a country that has lived with up close and personal combat for most of the past twenty-five years. They lived with having their soldiers faced by ten year-old with bombs strapped to their bodies or walking in lines into mine fields. They have a ruling junta that gives banquets for the families of suicide bombers. They've had our fighter jets and bombers dropping death from the skies for over ten years without surcease or enforcable limit.

And now our soldiers and their commanders are trying to bring order to a land with citizens emerging from decades of a life one third Orwell, one third Heironymus Bosch, and one third Arkansas suburb.
There will be not only mistakes, but atrocities, and they will come from both sides. And no power under the sun can prevent that.
Our Pentagon knows this as do the analysts of the CIA, DIA, and State Department. Always have. Nobody outside the White House and their forgery-promoting circle has ever thought that this would be fast, easy, or doable without five to ten years of bloody occupation.
When our troops try imposing order, every one of them, from the traffic cop to somebody treating enemy wounded, faces the very real possibility of having the people they are trying to help turning to kill them.

Our Apaches are being shot out of the sky by people hiding in civilian-filled neighborhoods. What is the "clean" response to that?

War is insanity by command. No matter the reasons, no matter the scale.

This, after all, is a large part of why so many of us fought to prevent this mad scheme in the first place.

Rustin
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Casualties in Iraq: Going to Get Much Worse More

Casualties in Iraq: Going to Get Much Worse

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  • You aren't saying anything new here.
    • You aren't saying anything new here.
      And everybody would agree with that. Except, that is, for Shrub and the supporters of his "quick easy win" bullshit.
      Oh, yeah, the people of Iraq will dance in the streets and welcome us with garlands of flowers. It'll be just like liberating Paris but without all that messy death and misery leading up to it.
      Uh huh; Sure.

      I *love* that more and more reports are appearing of analysts from the Pentagon to the CIA being told to tilt their reports way in an optimistic di
      • Hrrm Lately, I've seen a lot of grim-faced Pentagon types on the news now saying "get ready for a long fight" not "here comes the insta-win" and I don't remember anybody saying anything to that effect before the war either. Instead, I remeber reading a lot of nightmare scenarios where 1000s of american troops die in a chemical attack and 1000s more in "bloody urban warfare." (In all fairness, I probably missed the insta-win report - can you post a news article?)

        It is only the first few days of the war. Sad
        • (In all fairness, I probably missed the insta-win report - can you post a news article?)
          Yeah, really shoulda tracked down a few links before posting. I'll get to it.
          Of course, an obvious quickie example is that our neat and tidy air support system isn't working out as claimed or as planned. This whole bit with the Apaches being taken down so readily with RPGs was *not* a part of the plan. US military statements are admitting as much as they are now reformulating their tactics and strategies.
          As for Afgha
          • Ok, time for another Rustin Busted Spot! We had a converstion (via landline, since NYC kicked my ass and I ran like a little bitch, complete with sissy arm movements for increased speed) about the then upcoming war. At the time Rustin made the point that good old, former employee gone bad Saddam (as opposed to Ossma) is in fact in major Breach of Contract and that we should go in and point out that you just don't opt out of Contracts. (Rustin's big on Contract, like I'm big on parentheical statements, whic
            • This is *so* cool. So, Craig, ya wanna be my official Press Secretary? I figure that if I'm signing up to help gwhowell then I can ask the same of others.
              George, may we set up the rantin' at the world patrol of the No-BS Party? Huh? Huh?

              Yes, as Craig pointed out, I loathe people who back out of contracts and Saddam has done that big time. I have never, not once, said that we shouldn't go after Saddam and his regime. Just that a brute force military campaign is the wrong way to go about it. Anybody lookin
          • Yeah, really shoulda tracked down a few links before posting. I'll get to it.

            Right now, in a special offer never to return, here's a few for FREE!

            "Any war with Iraq would be swift and not require a full US mobilisation, says US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld."
            http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2738089.st m

            "Secretary of State Colin Powell said Thursday that if the United States goes to war against Iraq, it would be a swift war that would minimize the loss of life. Besides ridding Iraq of wea

            • Damn! That was sweet!

              Thank you R2K.

              btw, I've *gotta* ask. What search terms did you use to get those?

              Rustin
              • Thank you R2K.

                "I was like all beep-beep-beep. I was a good android too." ;-D Just Richie is fine, but that name was taken when I signed on here.

                What search terms did you use to get those?

                Simply "swift iraq war" (first Google hit is the BBC link) and "rumsfeld dancing streets iraq liberators" with a few changes between searches. :-) Maybe it's not so much getting the search terms right, it's scanning the results - I'm a fast reader.

                • Then Richie it will be.

                  Good keyword choices, though. I wouldn't have thought to actually use "dancing streets" as search terms. I guess I'm being too formal again.

                  And again, thanks,

                  Rustin
                  • My biggest itch right now is I seem to recall either Rumsfeld (probably) or Powell saying something like "they will greet us as liberators with flowers and dancing in the streets" but I can't find it now. Either *They* have pulled the story or I'm simply hallucinating again (more likely). It's such a good soundbite that it's probably not real but implanted, just like "Play it again, Sam".

                    Oh. I just tried a different tack (still didn't find it) and I found this gem: How Will Iraqis Greet Their 'Liberators' [latimes.com]

  • Something keeps catching my eye in the combat footage. Am I the only one noticing that our soldiers are wearing the same mixed-up gear that they always have in combat? Where is all that state of the art urban camo now that we have soldiers in actual urban combat? Why are they wearing helmets of one kit with BDUs of another?

    Of course we all know the answer already. It's because after we've given the Pentagon endless billions to hand out to their contractor buddies, at uncountable cost to our educational sys
    • >Where is all that state of the art urban camo now that we have soldiers in actual urban combat?

      Camo is largely useless. Breaking up the form is better than solids, and given that parts of Iraq are in fact mixed environments, it might be better.
      • Breaking up the form is better than solids, and given that parts of Iraq are in fact mixed environments, it might be better.
        I agree. Glad to have an ex-Marine back it up. So why are so many of the soldiers in Nasiriya wearing solid color helmets with olive drab BDUs?

        Rustin
        • Honestly, I don't know. I can only assume that they went with what they had on the assault ship, instead of what we had before during Desert Storm (where we went through 2 different types of desert camo!).

          • Exactly. As usual the guys in the field use what they can get their hands on.
            But wasn't the whole point of this much-trumpeted billion dollar-plus deployment supposed to be handling things just like that? All the positive coverage from the mainstream media tries very hard to make this sound all neat and tidy, with exogenous things like sandstorms and weird adaptations to muslim laws causing the only problems.

            I know that when I've handled logistics, from classroom guides to gas masks, I've certainly consid
    • Show me Shrub and his sleazy buddies with rifles in the front lines of Nasiriya...

      Wow, the good old "send the old men into the front lines, then they won't want to have a war" argument. Quite immature! Spawned of anger and frustration, no doubt (and therefore forgiven).

      We might as well suggest that Bush and Saddam settle the war with a 1v1 duel in the desert outside Bahgdad! Oh wait, that's what an Iraqi VP suggested a few weeks ago, how silly of me.

      Or how about we withdraw our troops on the conditio
      • Spawned of anger and frustration, no doubt.
        Correct. C'mon, allow me a *little* room for rhetoric!
        (and therefore forgiven)
        Thank you.

        [shameless but understandable snipes at "bring the boys home today!" oversimplifications]

        A better variation of this statement is that Bush and Co's children should have to fight in the war alongside other Americans' children. THAT, at least, seems fair.
        Sounds fair to me. Now *where* did I have Dubya's private number? ;-)

        Rustin
    • UPDATE

      Show me Shrub and his sleazy buddies with rifles in the front lines of Nasiriya and maybe I'll consider that they are anything but a bunch of bunco-selling, jingoistic con men spending our nation's best to fill their pockets and bolster their fragile egos.

      Looks like it's actually happened [theonion.com]. I guess you have to be quiet now, sorry!
  • So then given our commitment, is there only one solution? I am reminded of the report filed by Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now.

    The thing I learned from playing video games is that there is no such thing as honor, and the only rules are the ones imposed by the physics of the game. Should one of them have a glitch, EXPLOIT EXPLOIT EXPLOIT EXPLOIT. was it Chin shih huang ti who said 'the ends justify the means'? So then is that the only way to win a war?
  • Well Sadam has not exploded the dirty nukes. Yet.

    Saddam knows that this is his final chapter. (He isn't that stupid despite what he says on tv.) If he has the claimed weapons of mass destruction he will use them. Anyone who thought that this was going to be anything but a dirty war was delusional.
    • Well, if the rumors are correct then any really evil WMDs like that are in Jordan or elsewhere by now.

      Seems to me that if Saddam has any expectations of getting out alive and uncaptured, he'ld be setting up a blast right here in NYC or in some other Allied target.
      Even if he *does* expect to get captured, that's still his best bet. "cut me a deal and I tell you where the nukes are."

      He has nothing to gain that I can see using his heavy stuff within Iraq for now. Closest I see to that would be waiting until
      • Well, once again, I'm behind the Great Brain. Damn, I thought that I was on top of the Bomb issue you ahead of Rustin and once again, he's there first.

        Well, at least some people are thinking about this, I hope our field commanders have too.

        • Well, at least some people are thinking about this, I hope our field commanders have too.

          Just like they didn't think about actually encountering armed resistance, just because they are waging war on a sovereign nation (albeit with a wipe-wanting asshole in charge)? Suuuure.

          But no, I don't buy the 'Saddam will buy his way out with bomb blackmail" theory for several reasons. Uno, it won't keep him alive beyond him telling where they are. Dos, Bush can't deal with him, he's waay to far in the corner. Tres

          • Awwwww, shit.

            That all looks *far* too credible for my comfort. All of your points make sense and I have nothing to counter them with but the shaky hypothesis of Saddam getting taken out one way or another and one-time subordinates of his doing as I predicted. I just don't know.

            Good thing I just took a long nap 'cause it doesn't look like any of us will be sleeping too well tonight.

            Rustin
            • it doesn't look like any of us will be sleeping too well tonight.

              Here's another thought: Bear in mind that the Arab League (Can you say "OPEC"? Knew you could) have started leaning really hard on Bush to get out of al Dodge and if he does find a good excuse to leave[1], the Israelis just might send Iraq a few parting blows of their own. Saddam may be totally bonkers, but there's a kind of twisted logic to what he does and he's obviously a good strategist or he woulnd not still be alive today. Sharon, I'm

  • Take a look here [iwar.org.uk] (you've got to scroll down to reach the good stuff) at what claims to be complete set of the PsyOps leaflets being dropped over Iraq.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, trillion dollar military buildup and *this* is the best that we can do? It looks like these were done in Corel Draw or Micro$oft Publisher, written by the captain who had desk duty on the day the order came in.

    Surely with all the dollars they've spent and all the pro-war talent we've got in this country we could ha

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