Comment Re:Why not FLASH SWF? (Score 1) 81
>Flash SWF format already has widespread installation... SVG has about 0%.
This sounds good, but is actually false. Adobe has been shipping SVG with Acrobat Reader, and Acrobat since about June (I'd have to look up the specific date) Photoshop, Illustrator, GoLive, etc. for almost a year. I don't have the precise number, but I know we have already distributed more than 35 million viewers. I don't think this includes any of the OEMs that distribute Acrobat free from Adobe so the number is probably much higher if anything.
> Have you ever tried to make dynamic web-based applications that run in a browser using javascript, java, DHTML, etc? Almost impossible to get anything that runs cross-browser/platform without writing multiple versions of it.. FLASH works great on Netscape, Explorer, Linux, PC, Mac, etc.
I agree, DHTML has been problematic for many reasons. This is a topic for another time. I would suggest you look at examples found on http://www.adobe.com/svg/demos/main.html. It is quite possible to create Web applications with SVG and JavaScript, Java, Visual Basic, Perl, etc. However, I believe that JavaScript is the only scripting language required by the W3C's SVG Recommendation. There are several advantages to SVG for Web applications including:
1. Vector graphics. (compared to all bitmaps)
2. Graphics that can be created in an advanced drawing tool by a graphic designer (not a programmer) (an advantage over Java)
3. The division of Business logic (scripting), Content (data), and Presentation (graphic). (superior to SWF, Java, rasters...)
4. Graphics that can be dynamically created or updated with live data. (a map, a stock chart, or an inventory control system, for example)
> So why use another standard proposed as SVG when there is already a great vector graphic system available that has lots of features: O.O. scripting, XML, huge user base, cross-platform compatibility?
Be sure and compare apples to apples here. SWF has no DOM (Document Object Model). It has some limited ability to do text substitution (XML is text) but it is not a structured format and lacks many of the niceties of having a full DOM.
There is then the issue of a proprietary de facto standard (albeit one that is commonly used) and an open standard. SVG is quickly catching on. Even though it has just become a W3C Recommendation, there are hundreds of SVG web sites, and probably close to a hundred SVG tools. I won't begin to preach the value of Open standards in a forum like this one because I assume that most people here appreciate their value. Having said that, I'm the first to say that SWF has appropriate applications. Authors should choose the tool (and format) that best suits their purpose.
As for the user base, I think you have over looked a few things. SVG can be easily picked up (with great success I might add) by any JavaScript programmer. I have seen first hand JavaScript programmers become quite proficient in very short time because there is a DOM in SVG. One must also include XML enthusiasts in the list of potential SVG-enabled develoeprs.Because SVG is XML (unlike SWF) it is easy for XML hackers (I use the term with the utmost respect of course) to jump in running. Then comes database experts. Oracle and the like have been on the XML bandwagon for a long time. With native XML support, one can bring the full power of an Oracle application to bear on a problem and paint the data into pretty pictures. XML is not unlike HTML in many ways so many of the people who are used to hand coding HTML are going to be at home with SVG. (Note that SVG also supports CSS, XLINK, HREF, etc, just like HTML and XHTML.) Now, when you add all of these talented people together and arm them with Design oriented tools (Illustrator, CorelDraw, JASC, etc.) and Developer oriented folks (with everything from XMetaL from SoftQuad to their favorite text editing and version control systems) you have a pretty awesome development opportunity. Oh, that's right version control!! Just try to check in a SWF project into a version control system, then check it out for a late stage edit (say to change some text element) and check it back in. Then show me a delta of the change. In SWF that little exercise is impossible. But I digress...
I urge people to look http://xml.apache.org/batik/ and http://xml.apache.org/fop/svg.html as just two open source SVG projects that do an excellent job of showing some of the value that dynamic, interactive, personalized web graphics can offer.
Michael Bierman
Senior Product Manager, SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics)
Adobe Systems "everywhere you lookTM"
http://www.adobe.com/svg
This sounds good, but is actually false. Adobe has been shipping SVG with Acrobat Reader, and Acrobat since about June (I'd have to look up the specific date) Photoshop, Illustrator, GoLive, etc. for almost a year. I don't have the precise number, but I know we have already distributed more than 35 million viewers. I don't think this includes any of the OEMs that distribute Acrobat free from Adobe so the number is probably much higher if anything.
> Have you ever tried to make dynamic web-based applications that run in a browser using javascript, java, DHTML, etc? Almost impossible to get anything that runs cross-browser/platform without writing multiple versions of it.. FLASH works great on Netscape, Explorer, Linux, PC, Mac, etc.
I agree, DHTML has been problematic for many reasons. This is a topic for another time. I would suggest you look at examples found on http://www.adobe.com/svg/demos/main.html. It is quite possible to create Web applications with SVG and JavaScript, Java, Visual Basic, Perl, etc. However, I believe that JavaScript is the only scripting language required by the W3C's SVG Recommendation. There are several advantages to SVG for Web applications including:
1. Vector graphics. (compared to all bitmaps)
2. Graphics that can be created in an advanced drawing tool by a graphic designer (not a programmer) (an advantage over Java)
3. The division of Business logic (scripting), Content (data), and Presentation (graphic). (superior to SWF, Java, rasters...)
4. Graphics that can be dynamically created or updated with live data. (a map, a stock chart, or an inventory control system, for example)
> So why use another standard proposed as SVG when there is already a great vector graphic system available that has lots of features: O.O. scripting, XML, huge user base, cross-platform compatibility?
Be sure and compare apples to apples here. SWF has no DOM (Document Object Model). It has some limited ability to do text substitution (XML is text) but it is not a structured format and lacks many of the niceties of having a full DOM.
There is then the issue of a proprietary de facto standard (albeit one that is commonly used) and an open standard. SVG is quickly catching on. Even though it has just become a W3C Recommendation, there are hundreds of SVG web sites, and probably close to a hundred SVG tools. I won't begin to preach the value of Open standards in a forum like this one because I assume that most people here appreciate their value. Having said that, I'm the first to say that SWF has appropriate applications. Authors should choose the tool (and format) that best suits their purpose.
As for the user base, I think you have over looked a few things. SVG can be easily picked up (with great success I might add) by any JavaScript programmer. I have seen first hand JavaScript programmers become quite proficient in very short time because there is a DOM in SVG. One must also include XML enthusiasts in the list of potential SVG-enabled develoeprs.Because SVG is XML (unlike SWF) it is easy for XML hackers (I use the term with the utmost respect of course) to jump in running. Then comes database experts. Oracle and the like have been on the XML bandwagon for a long time. With native XML support, one can bring the full power of an Oracle application to bear on a problem and paint the data into pretty pictures. XML is not unlike HTML in many ways so many of the people who are used to hand coding HTML are going to be at home with SVG. (Note that SVG also supports CSS, XLINK, HREF, etc, just like HTML and XHTML.) Now, when you add all of these talented people together and arm them with Design oriented tools (Illustrator, CorelDraw, JASC, etc.) and Developer oriented folks (with everything from XMetaL from SoftQuad to their favorite text editing and version control systems) you have a pretty awesome development opportunity. Oh, that's right version control!! Just try to check in a SWF project into a version control system, then check it out for a late stage edit (say to change some text element) and check it back in. Then show me a delta of the change. In SWF that little exercise is impossible. But I digress...
I urge people to look http://xml.apache.org/batik/ and http://xml.apache.org/fop/svg.html as just two open source SVG projects that do an excellent job of showing some of the value that dynamic, interactive, personalized web graphics can offer.
Michael Bierman
Senior Product Manager, SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics)
Adobe Systems "everywhere you lookTM"
http://www.adobe.com/svg
