Comment Warrantless Wiretapping - Collosal Red Herring (Score 0, Flamebait) 424
1) Anyone who has researched domestic wiretaps knows it has been going on for decades.
2) A house bill cannot become law without a corresponding senate bill, a joint conference reconciled version and another positive vote. Finally it must be signed into law by the president, and/or defeat a veto with a super majority. Read the constitution.
3) Some tend to agree that wiretapping is legal outside the united states. Some are offended that any US citizen might be wiretapped without a court order. ACLU and others are offended and in denial that the capability exists at all. What about a non-US citizen? What about a US citizen who is outside the US (phone call originates outside)? What about a US citizen calling a known terrorist (UBL for example) who is already under surveillance? How about a known terrorist (Zawahiri for example) already under surveillance calling a US citizen? I guess we just have to pretend the phone call never occurred, start from ground zero and head for the FISA court, and hope to get in/out in a timely way to do something about your surely short lived "intelligence" about the location of an HVT, or potential accomplices. Lots of real smart asses out here posting some rather vehement ideas that this is some open and shut thing for third rate lawyers. Sounds like a constitutional nightmare to me with good and bad on both sides. A few wanna be ambulance chasers have decided that its all about the process or the FISA, that somehow congress can pass laws (not constitutional ammendments, just laws passed by a majority) which fundamentally change the balance of powers sought by the framers of the constitution (specifically in this case executive powers to deal with threats to the nation). Deal with all of these problems in some realistic way, or shut the fuck up.
4) Some think that all this technology is some vast big brother conspiracy. That somehow their deep dark personal secrets will be cataloged and used against them. Hell face it, the FISA was created to prevent the executive branch from being able to use its well known ability to eavesdrop on the CONGRESS, a body rife with pecadillos. If some think that FISA was meant to protect the average american citizen, ask yourself why is the FISA all done in a highly classified environment? Think about this for a moment, given the classified nature of having access to these phone transcripts (it's all TS at least), and even some reasonably reliable automated keyword voice recongition capability, whats the chance of any HUGE body of intelligence pukes plowing through the volume of calls flagged by the thousands of keywords and finding anything significant? Assuming 200 million people make 2 phone calls per day, assume roughly 20% have some factor which generates a "positive interest", assume a 500,000 analysts (this is larger than the uniformed USAF and Navy combined) what will it take to sort through the "positive hits" let alone correlate them? Truth: You will be lucky to get the most obvious cases using known phone numbers or other relavant triggers.
For all you brilliant conspiracy theorists, the answer is, it can't be done!!! And oh.... by the way... smoke this in your ACLU hash pipe, without the FISA court approval of the "wiretap" (before or after the fact), not one word, not one phone number, not one GPS reported location, not one set of owner information, NOTHING obtained can be used as evidence in a US court of law (and I guarantee you it would not be used anyway).
5) Here's a question for those just interested in bashing Bush (despite his being a simple putsch). Have any of you got any idea during whose administration all this capability was first briefed to the president?? Can you maybe take a guess at what congressional panels knew about this capability and during what color of congress did the system in question get funded? Can you guess what legislation might have been in some way a reaction to this as a real capability? If you guessed that this huge system (try looking up echelon) was invented by NeoCons, fundamentalist christians (or Muslims), large industriest, that it happened during this decade, or that it was even dreamed up during the nineties, you fulfill my expectations of you. If you guessed that FISA was probably in some small sense a direct reaction to this capability, you win the bingo prize.
2) A house bill cannot become law without a corresponding senate bill, a joint conference reconciled version and another positive vote. Finally it must be signed into law by the president, and/or defeat a veto with a super majority. Read the constitution.
3) Some tend to agree that wiretapping is legal outside the united states. Some are offended that any US citizen might be wiretapped without a court order. ACLU and others are offended and in denial that the capability exists at all. What about a non-US citizen? What about a US citizen who is outside the US (phone call originates outside)? What about a US citizen calling a known terrorist (UBL for example) who is already under surveillance? How about a known terrorist (Zawahiri for example) already under surveillance calling a US citizen? I guess we just have to pretend the phone call never occurred, start from ground zero and head for the FISA court, and hope to get in/out in a timely way to do something about your surely short lived "intelligence" about the location of an HVT, or potential accomplices. Lots of real smart asses out here posting some rather vehement ideas that this is some open and shut thing for third rate lawyers. Sounds like a constitutional nightmare to me with good and bad on both sides. A few wanna be ambulance chasers have decided that its all about the process or the FISA, that somehow congress can pass laws (not constitutional ammendments, just laws passed by a majority) which fundamentally change the balance of powers sought by the framers of the constitution (specifically in this case executive powers to deal with threats to the nation). Deal with all of these problems in some realistic way, or shut the fuck up.
4) Some think that all this technology is some vast big brother conspiracy. That somehow their deep dark personal secrets will be cataloged and used against them. Hell face it, the FISA was created to prevent the executive branch from being able to use its well known ability to eavesdrop on the CONGRESS, a body rife with pecadillos. If some think that FISA was meant to protect the average american citizen, ask yourself why is the FISA all done in a highly classified environment? Think about this for a moment, given the classified nature of having access to these phone transcripts (it's all TS at least), and even some reasonably reliable automated keyword voice recongition capability, whats the chance of any HUGE body of intelligence pukes plowing through the volume of calls flagged by the thousands of keywords and finding anything significant? Assuming 200 million people make 2 phone calls per day, assume roughly 20% have some factor which generates a "positive interest", assume a 500,000 analysts (this is larger than the uniformed USAF and Navy combined) what will it take to sort through the "positive hits" let alone correlate them? Truth: You will be lucky to get the most obvious cases using known phone numbers or other relavant triggers.
For all you brilliant conspiracy theorists, the answer is, it can't be done!!! And oh.... by the way... smoke this in your ACLU hash pipe, without the FISA court approval of the "wiretap" (before or after the fact), not one word, not one phone number, not one GPS reported location, not one set of owner information, NOTHING obtained can be used as evidence in a US court of law (and I guarantee you it would not be used anyway).
5) Here's a question for those just interested in bashing Bush (despite his being a simple putsch). Have any of you got any idea during whose administration all this capability was first briefed to the president?? Can you maybe take a guess at what congressional panels knew about this capability and during what color of congress did the system in question get funded? Can you guess what legislation might have been in some way a reaction to this as a real capability? If you guessed that this huge system (try looking up echelon) was invented by NeoCons, fundamentalist christians (or Muslims), large industriest, that it happened during this decade, or that it was even dreamed up during the nineties, you fulfill my expectations of you. If you guessed that FISA was probably in some small sense a direct reaction to this capability, you win the bingo prize.
