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Journal heliocentric's Journal: God == Santa Claus / atheism isn't a religion 46

Journal by heliocentric

Assumptions: A God (either through micro manage or just via a summary at the end) judges how good a person has been based on some rule set that is debatable and not important for this discussion. Santa knows if you've been "bad" or "good." Some people believe in a God, others don't. Some people believe in Santa, others don't.

Ok, now with that introduction let me go a little further with my own ideas.

There is nothing wrong with believing in Santa. Many kids are told about him and I think a lot of times their parents enjoy it just as much - to keep the illusion, to discuss the myths and to tell the tales. I don't think believing in Santa ruins anything for anybody.

Fact is, though, one day we all learn that there is no Santa. We may be a little bitter if our illusion was really comfortable and lasted a long time, but we soon shed this and go on with our lives. Perhaps delighting in the magic with our own children someday.

Some of us maybe never believed in Santa (or your own equivalent such as Chanukah Harry), but still enjoy a good movie or story about Santa. I never believed in Santa or Frosty the Snowman or any of those other things, but I can still have fun with the stories. Sometimes these stories are merely entertaining, other times they have a moral or a suggestion about how to live your life better and hey, that's cool, too.

I think I can say the same thing I did in the last few paragraphs about a God and biblical stories. Santa is basically a "Christian-like God Lite:" there are fewer demands, fewer stories, and is only really discussed for part of the year. For some people the belief brings about lots of fun, there are tons of stories about their God/Santa and different tales. For many the bible has good teachings. Personally I think there are tons of other books with good morals for kids as well as adults and putting all of your faith into one author/genre is at best naive.

I've never told anyone that Santa didn't exist until pretty much just now. I think that's something someone needs to learn on their own. By the same token, people need to make their own decisions about God. I'm not going to tell you how to live your life, however I expect the same in return. No one loiters outside of stores or comes door-to-door telling me to renew my faith in Frosty or that Santa will save me, and I'd like the same respect regarding your God, his God, or the form of God worshiped across town.

If someone tells me Frosty demands my faith he can go melt in the street for all I care, I know he doesn't exist so I won't waste my time on it. The day a real live snowman comes to my door is the day I'll believe Frosty is more than a character in a story (see I am 100% sure he doesn't exist, however I am open minded, I know many people who are just the opposite [100% sure there is a God and are close minded]). Until then the word of man and pastoral stories are interesting, but not foundation for a belief system.

I can still see value in biblical stories as I see value with the Grinch Who Stole Christmas, but no one gets together on a regular basis and reads passages from the books of Suess, lights some candles, genuflects, and drinks some wine. It seems many people put a lot of faith into something that is just on the same level as Seuss, although with a tad more sex than his children's stories* and a little more death thrown in for good measure.

What I'm trying to say in simplistic boxing-gloves-on terms is that not only do I not believe in a God, Frosty, or Santa, but also I don't believe in religion at all. The spark for my saying this was a recent JE discussion (or JE with linkage to a discussion perhaps) stating that someone who doesn't believe in a God should state that his or her religion is atheism. To me that is so contradictory. For some reason people seem to think that atheism means a hatred of a God (that would be by definition contradictory as to hate something you must acknowledge its existence) or perhaps a hatred of religion, but it has nothing to do with hate, it is merely an opinion. Yes, there are some ardent supporters, but those come on both sides, too, let's not classify things by a group's vocal minority**. Atheism is a belief in the lack of a God and therefore cannot be a religion.

I relegate practicing religion to that of a hobby. Some people put a lot of time into it; they have meetings, get-togethers, hootenannies, and even weddings. I do a lot with my hobbies of trains, photography, and computers. I find it offensive that anyone would want to designate an attribute of man as "religion" as I think it is just as silly to insist that everyone have a hobby. We have many intrinsic properties: height, weight, shoe size, dressing left/right, but one such label I disagree with is that of "religion." Outside of Nazi propaganda films I don't think we should try to relate religion and physical attributes.

Inquiring as to what someone's religion is seems to me just as arbitrary as asking what kind of penguin they have. Some people have one, others don't. Just because you may have one does not imply that everyone else has one.

Man does not have a religion; they acquire one. To get one they are forced into one by their family, forced into one by their society, or they find their own (or find their own again in some cases, that's fine, too), but this does not mean they are born with a religious definition. Man can make choices about and even resist religion and therefore this cannot be a category to universally describe man.

Well, I should go now, I just got my menorah out the other day, I'm looking forward to Christmas, and I just had an idea to read some Suess to my penguin while I have some wine!

* - you do know he didn't just do kids books, right? ::wink wink::
** - Islamic extremists is to Islam as KKK is to Christianity
(from West Wing), remember that next time someone associates the entirety of Islam with terrorism.

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God == Santa Claus / atheism isn't a religion More

God == Santa Claus / atheism isn't a religion

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  • He did write a very interesting story about the "The Ladies Godiva". Imagine Dr Seuss drawings of naked women with long flowing hair riding horses. Bizarre.

    I did a term paper on him in High School...got a A.

    I believe in God, not in Santa .yada yada yada...

    If people actually listened to the basic idea of religions, the world would be a better place. You don't have to believe in God to be a good person and to care about others. But if you want to great!...if not, great!

    All you need is love...hey the
    • In the interest of holiday spirit I will leave this post alone. For any other wolves out there waiting to pounce, I recommend you take your salivating jaws elsewhere.
      • I thank you for your reserve and composure...

        Ahhh the holiday spirit....

        Sean D.
        • I dunno, whenever anyone says GOD (and it isn't attached to the word DAMN) people on slashdot LOSE THEIR MINDS and go into a feeding frenzy. They needed to be "headed off at the pass", if you dig.

          Now Playing: Fishbone "Just Call me Scrooge"
          • Comment removed based on user account deletion
            • I'm always reminded of my lacrosse coach in high school (a recent college grad) who told us how on a drunken christmas eve, he caught the end of "Its a wonderful life" and was completely taken in by the Jimmy Stewart/Donna Reed one-two punch of hope and faith in mankind, and totally called up the local PBS station and pledged $50.

              Many days later, he was sent a sobering letter asking for that $50. (or maybe it was $35...) No, he never did send that check.
  • Islamic extremists is to Islam as KKK is to Christianity
    (from West Wing), remember that next time someone associates the entirety of Islam with terrorism.

    Issac and Ishmael [nbc.com] was such a great episode.

    Of course, the Biblical story of Issac and Ishmael is pretty awesome.
  • I had some problem with that since the KKK doesn't have any religious-specific views. Sure, it's explicitly Protestant and against Jews and Catholics, but that's akin to the PLO or IRA which is an informal socio-political group that just happens to be all from the same religous segment. There's no real big leaps in Klan Christian ideology from that of regular Christian sects.

    The more apt relationship would be the World Church of the Creator and the Aryan Nations which have a very unique take on religion
  • and frankly, i see it as the reverse of having a kid be comfortable early in life- we were discomfited by the knowledge early on, but for the rest of my life i get to know that my mother didn't lie to me just because i'd have believed it. She told us, when we asked, that there is an important and worthwhile teaching in the story of santa claus, but that the person known as Santa Claus was a legend that may have been linked to a real person once.

    For that matter, the bible questions got a similar response..

    • She told us, when we asked, that there is an important and worthwhile teaching in the story of santa claus, but that the person known as Santa Claus was a legend that may have been linked to a real person once.

      For what it's worth, he is based on a real person, albeit rather indirectly. "Santa Claus" is a corruption of "Sinter Klaas", which is the Dutch form of "Saint Nicholas". St. Nicholas' Day is December 6th, which is still celebrated in the Netherlands and Germany and was the original day for exchangi

      • Santa Claus is based on a real person, although the "real" St. Nicholas has been lost in the mists of time -- very little is known about him for certain, other than he was a generous bishop imprisoned for his Christian beliefs.

        Just to make my subtle analogies clear:

        Jesus is Santa Claus and God is Frosty the Snowman

        I know my title was misleading in that sense (well, I kinda used both interchangable, but in spirit that was what I was thinking), but it was meant to be more sensational than anything. I thi
      • (in the Netherlands it still is -- they give presents to kids on Dec. 5th, i.e. the even of St. Nicholas' Day; in Germany children leave their shoes out and have them filled with sweets on the morning of the 6th)

        Just to fill in the void: Sinterklaas (usually written together, I'm not kidding) is known in Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. Germany has more of a penchant to "Das Kristkind". They push more in the direction of Christmas.

        • Netherlands: The 5th Dec in the evening. Depending on the f
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • I respect my mum lots for it. In fact, the only things that i wish she'd done differently would be to tell us more of the truth earlier on, though i understand why she tried to shield us from some things. I think your kids will be very glad that you're hypertruthful. It's nice that one of the things in my life that i can count on is that my mum will never lie to me.
  • I think I would have to qualify the statement that atheists aren't religious. You touched on what I view to be the central matter: Open mindedness, It seems to me that atheists like you (and I for that matter) who admit freely that we could be wrong, do not take the absence of a god as a matter of faith. There are those who would not listen to reason, if presented with overwhelming evidence, for these people atheism is a matter of faith, and in my opinion a religion. As a side note... In my own experien
    • Again, I said practicing a reglion is a hobby - to me you don't have to beleive in anything to get some joy out of some of the practices. I can show you tons of train things, and while you may find it interesting and even want to do more, you probably won't get the same level of satisfaction as me because of me devotion.

      Anyone can take anything to the point of such obession that the phrase "religion" can be applied, but here is a common use (perhaps misuse) of the term to mean like an ardent disire. Thin
  • Santa. Claus. Isn't. Real?

    My entire world has been shaken. Why hasn't anyone else told me this?

    I don't think Dr. Seuss wrote any adult material, but I know that Theodore Geisel did.

  • Moo (Score:1, Troll)

    by Chacham ( 981 ) *
    Atheism is a belief in the lack of a God and therefore cannot be a religion.

    The fact that it is a "belief" makes it a religion.
    • I beleive you are wrong when you say that.

      Is that now a religion?

      • Re:Moo (Score:2)

        by Chacham ( 981 ) *
        It depends on ther reason for your belief.

        I yopu believe i am wrong, simply because you believe you are correct. Then, it is basically a religous belief. If you believe i am wrong based on factual data, then probably not.

        • Re:Moo (Score:2, Funny)

          by heliocentric ( 74613 ) *
          Truely, you have a dizzying intellect.

          • Re:Moo (Score:1)

            by Chacham ( 981 ) *
            You're saying i use circular logic?
            • I like the circular part, but logic seems to have little impact =)

              I found myself re-reading what you said about a dozen times to figure out the typo, and even then I felt like making a diagram or using demorgan's law to find the equiv. I think I get what you're saying, but I now know I'm not going to get you to explain difficult things to me =)

              • Re:Moo (Score:2)

                by Chacham ( 981 ) *
                I found myself re-reading what you said about a dozen times to figure out the typo,

                "ther" and "yopu". Was it really that hard?

                I think I get what you're saying, but I now know I'm not going to get you to explain difficult things to me =)

                Actually, I find it absurd that any sane person would even consider arguing that a belief in Atheism is not a religion. I understand that people don't realize it at first, as they mistakenly associate a deity with a religion. Once pointed out that it is a belief, everyo

                • Re:Moo (Score:2, Informative)

                  by heliocentric ( 74613 ) *
                  Me thinks you missed the "=)"s to imply that I was kidding.

                  Anyway, take apart the definition for religion [reference.com]:

                  1.1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

                  Hopefully it is clear that this does not apply.

                  1.2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

                  Again, atheism doesn't fit here.

                  2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

                  Also, not applicable.

                  3. A set of beliefs, values, and practic

                  • Re:Moo (Score:2)

                    by Chacham ( 981 ) *
                    I saw the smiley. But i thought you meant *something*. :)

                    Anyway, i simply disagree with that definition. My definition of religion is mostly a belief in something. When people say Athiesm isn't a religion they don't mean according to the technical defintion as you just put forth, and even if they do, the detractors don't.

                    So, the real thing being argues is simply that Atheism is a belief. Not something logically proven.
                    • I happen to beleive that model railraoding is the best hobby for kids. This is something that can never be proven is will remain forever as a beleif. I have tons of reasons why I think this (teaches basic electronics, mathematics, develops an interest in history, trips, outdoor activities, painting, working with their hands, and if they get involved with others [as is the natural thing] then team work and a whole other set of good things come into play - practically everything I hear is good to support fo

                    • Re:Moo (Score:2)

                      by Chacham ( 981 ) *
                      My question though, under your definition/reasoning is my obsession with trains a religion?

                      Not really. It's not a matter of belief.

                      >My definition of religion is mostly a belief in something.

                      Which I think you didn't mean to be so broad.

                      True. I left it somewhat vague, as i don't know the *exact* definition (yet). :)
                • Hey- just jumping offtopic for a few moments. I did a new JE. It has a couple of strong words, but the more important point is that i'm trying a new labelling system in the subject heading, and want to spare you the trouble of having to read the JE to find out about it.

                  Basically, the title reads: ^The tale of Mr. Molar... the "^" is going to be put at the beginning of every JE, and preferably every comment (though i try to keep my comments clean, period) that uses language stronger than 'dang' or 'heck.

                  • Thanx. :)

                    I just won't read it. Hopefully, i will soon have a filter in place, and not need to use "foe" anymore.
          • I suggest you don't drink from either cup. The poison is probably in both. I bet Chacham simple developed a resistance to iocane power while he was in Australia...

            oh, nevermind...
    • Atheism doesn't have sacred writings, holy teachings, a pantheon, rituals, founders, or pretty much anything else. Some atheists may at times be angered into claiming a stronger definition, but it really is just a worldview lacking religion and mysticism. It is less of a religion than nihilism, humanism, or romanticism and none of those are religions.;)
  • So you can be *totally* ambivalent on the subject?

    I'm not willing to deny the existence of any god/higher power/whatever... but I'm not going to confirm it via a "practiced" "religion."

    ....Bethanie....
    • Your "practiced" or "organized religions" as I like to calle them are like bus terminals - for some they provided needed guidance yet for some reason they seem to attract of all of the weirdos and nut jobs from society.

      For you to completely denying the existance of a higher being is to deny that I exist. Ok, bad joke aside, if I take your logic and pull it apart and twist it (I know you like it when I do that) I can say that you would accept the existance of a "god" if you do so via your own methods. To
    • While reading this journal, that was my first thought. I'm not an atheist, I'm not relgious. I just cope with the doubt, which makes me "agnostic"... Glad you brought it up bethanie :-)
  • i didn't know what to title this comment so i just used the band album song i am listening to at the moment.

    to an atheist it would make perfect sense that religion is like other hobbies. as a theist, i see it differently. hobbies are things people do because they want to, because they enjoy them or for other reasons. religion is something a person practices (or sometimes just adheres to) because it is what they believe. beliefs are difficult to change through an act of will. they can be challenged, bu
    • as a theist, i see it differently. hobbies are things people do because they want to, because they enjoy them or for other reasons. religion is something a person practices (or sometimes just adheres to) because it is what they believe. beliefs are difficult to change through an act of will. they can be challenged, but the outcome of the challenge won't be known until it is passed.

      But what you over look is how people come into the beleiving. I propose if you take a baby and raise it entirely alone it wil
      • But what you over look is how people come into the beleiving. I propose if you take a baby and raise it entirely alone it will not develop a concept of religion. This is not a born-with concept. As is trains, fishing, and many other hobbies - they are acquired. I am sure you have deep beleifs about your religion as I do about my trains.

        i didn't overlook it. that is the reason i think it is important to challenge beliefs. there are both theists and atheists that are unwilling to examine their beliefs. a
        • also while you couldn't just decide not to like trains, you could decide to give up the hobby.

          I could never give it up - it is a part of me. I'm going through political problems with the club I have belonged to my entire life and while it is crushing I will still have the hobby. I have a home layout and I'm lookin for other clubs that will best fit my need. There are also magazines and other ways to stay in the hobby. For a while when I didn't have a trainset of my own for several years I told people
          • ok, now you're just being contrarian. ;) personally i think you sound more like charlton heston as predident of the NRA than charlton heston as moses. i don't think he ever lead a group of train enthusiasts, though.

            i think we're near enough the same page that it doesn't matter.
            • Helio has asked to make it quite clear that he is more than a minor train nutt. Someone who has not only worked on the big ones but I think knows more about the models than most. I have very detailed christmas lists. In a fire he would grab his models before he would grab me.

  • Man does not have a religion; they acquire one. To get one they are forced into one by their family, forced into one by their society, or they find their own (or find their own again in some cases, that's fine, too), but this does not mean they are born with a religious definition.

    I'm not so sure. Math is part of the universe we came from, and game theory is derived from that, and basic ethics are derived from that. Such is the universe that man is born into.

    Justice is a common theme in ethics. If so

    • I agree with all of your points except how you bring them together at the end. It is like proof by unrelated terms. =)

      While justice is a part of many religions and religion is often a factor in justice the two are not any more related and are disjoint to me as one can entirely exist without the other.

      But hey, I don't think you're "wrong" I just disagree, your point is probably just as valid as mine, we just happen to see the world differently.

      I for one welcome our not Frosty overlords.

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