Comment Re:Those are separate things (Score 1) 262
> Yes, they did. But the people of the West Bank and the people of Gaza are not Hamas or Fatah. Those are political factions within them.
Gazans and West Bank palestinians don't hate each other.
Those are not the people Israel declared war on either. It explicitly attacks the Hamas. These people are the victims. At this point I don't think Israel should bare much blame. This is Hamas's fault. They can save every single civilian by just taking them into the tunnels under Gaza. They don't want that. They want them to die.
People keep amplifying the victimization of casualties here and ignoring the fact that Israel literally has no choice.
The Hamas has explicitly stated its goal is the destruction of Israel. It has proven it will use any ceasefire to get more arms and kill more. It keeps kidnapped civilians (children as young as 3!). Israel doesn't have a choice but to attack. It then forces civilians into its path.
> > My point is, Israel wouldn't be in the Westbank if not for the Hamas.
>
> Huh? Israel is in the West Bank because of Jordan (and the fact that they consider it their land)
Maybe you meant Gaza?
Nope. I meant Hamas. The Oslo accord started a process of leaving the west bank and Gaza. It was working rather well until the Hamas started blowing up busses in the middle of Tel Aviv killing MANY civilians in pretty horrific suicide bombings. Netanyahu used these to amplify anti-Palestinian sentiment triggering the assassination of Rabin and his rise to power. It also gave him "legitimacy" to stop the Oslo accord from moving forward.
Had it not been for the Hamas it is very likely that the Oslo accord would have progressed and we would have a Palestinian state by now in both Gaza and the West bank.
> > If the Hamas is destroyed after this action Israel would need the Palestinians from the Westbank to take over.
>
> Palestinians in teh West Bank take over Gaza? That's a bit of a trick since people aren't allowed to make that commute... if they're Palestinian, of course.
That isn't true. There's a border pass and people with permits can make that commute. People from Gaza used to go into Israel all the time for work, medical treatments and more. In fact, before October 17th Israel was slowly relaxing restrictions and approximately 17,000 Gaza residence were in Israel. Some just snuck out and Israel turned a blind eye to encourage economic prosperity in Gaza which they incorrectly assumed would tame the Hamas.
The Palestinian authority used to control Gaza before the Hamas took over so this has some historic roots. Arafat had it as his base.
> Settlers dressed up as IDF personnel and driving Palestinians off land and building outposts, while the IDF sits idly by.
Yep. That's criminal and should be documented. People go to jail for that nonsense especially now. The other day there was a terrible incident in the west bank where Palestinians were attacked by rogue soldiers. This made the Israeli press and people are furious at them.
I get the rage the soldiers are feeling (that was the intention of the October attacks). But they should go to jail for a long time.
Furthermore, the mindshare in Israeli society has really soured against settlers. I'm not sure if it will remain as negative but it seems that Israelis are tired of their nonsense. There are also many Israeli driven organizations that work against them and against the West bank occupation e.g.
https://www.btselem.org/
https://www.ahimlaneshek.org/
Many of the documented accounts for these crimes are from these organizations.
The word atrocities carries a higher bar for me personally. The two little girls stuck in a closet hiding under the body of their mother while their little 3 year old brother was kidnapped to Gaza. The block of charred remains which is a father holding his son while both were burned alive in their home.
Most of these people were good people. A family who organized an annual kite flying event next to the fence so Gazan and Israeli kids can fly kites together and see the other side in a different light. All slaughtered with their children. An 80 year old man who would drive Gazan cancer patients to treatments in Israeli hospitals is now held in Gaza for 3+ weeks... This is just a tip of the 1,300 murdered and 240 kidnapped.
I have a lot of empathy for the pain of the Palestinian people. But there's a ridiculous difference in scale and malicious intention.