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Journal SolemnDragon's Journal: Why Idol is bad for music (opinion) 58

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I have been thinking a long time to try to work into words why i feel that shows like american idol are bad for us. Not just bad art, but bad FOR art, and why i feel so keenly about this.

I've come up with an answer.

Art is not about popularity, but about accuracy, like math. It has to demonstrate larger principles of the world around us to have lasting greatness, even if it demonstrates them through the analogy or experience of something commonplace. (Arguably, the best art is that which uses things that we do understand to explain concepts that we don't.)

Bear with me, because in a lot of senses, yes, it is about popularity, you're right. In other senses, though, subjecting art to the test of what is popular means that you will arrive at a narrow band of what is acceptable to most, and exclude what is unusual or appeals to only a few.

This runs counter to one of the roles of art in society, which is similar to the role of pure mathematics- it allows us to define things in ways that can be understood, because it takes real fringe-element people to understand some things. Anyone can write a a song about a breakup, or about desire. Not many can write one that has relevancy, in that it explains something larger. It takes art that sometimes makes us uncomfortable, it takes art we don't always like, it takes art that isn't 'good enough,' but is 'great.' I can't see some of the guitar legends ever making it through the rounds of the current contests- they just don't follow directions enough.

Mediocrity is replaceable, and it is universally tolerated. This is why there will always be another boy band and there will always be another britney.

Genius is NOT replaceable. It is not common. It ruffles feathers and is unpleasant for some people to look at when it first comes out. You cannot vote on genius most of the time. Genius does what it needs to do.

And so you won't get it on a pop show, which is busy producing the next mediocrity.

People mistake it for purer art, and it muddies things. People like it for fluff, and just like soft drinks, if taken too much it replaces the nutrients that you could be getting from more real materials. This is not to say never listen to it- but don't mistake it for the real thing. I'm not just talking mozart, here, i'm talking eddie van halen playing 'fur elise' and i'm talking the stuff that the blues is made of and the stuff that makes the primal reds rise up.

My problem with this current pop wavelength is that it's the same old pop wavelength. It isn't even trying to find genius, in a field where (let's face it) there is genius to be had in millions of struggling artists, and where there's actual appreciation for geniuses more than in other fields. We KNOW good when we hear it, it doesn't have to be like math where we have to study it just to see if it's accurate.

I dislike the show not for its trivial nature and the cattiness of its hosts- which i also despise, but whatever, it's a show- but for the fact that it is like a paint-by-numbers show, teaching us that to sing other people's material is a good career move, that artists who do what they're told and are popularly tolerated are the best.

Frequently, the best in a field are popular, but that's not the same thing.

I know a lot of people can think rings around me in our circle here, but i'm proud of myself for having through this out as far as i have. I dislike shows like that because they present a flawed image of how real art works.

Art is a commodity these days, but it will never entirely cease to be a merit-based field. You can paint for hire, and lots of people do, and you can be wildly successful at it without being great. You can sing for hire and be successful without being great. You can also be great AND successful, which are not the same thing. You can even be great and entirely unsuccessful (though some who are not heard are unheard because it's a mercy to the rest of us.) But the merits of art stand apart from the immediate reward or recognition gotten from it- and that's the long view that shows like this don't teach people.

Yes, i know- they are not trying to go there, they call themselves a pop production for this very reason. But to me, that's no excuse.

Anyway, i'm off my soapbox now, having finally thought this through. It's the obvious, i know, like gee she finally figured out that mainstream will always be watered-down, but hey- i never claimed to be on the cutting edge...

i can recognise the worth of some art i hate. Monet. I've never liked monet. I recognise some lovely tendencies in his work, but if i had to choose monet or a blank wall in a room of mine, it would be a blank wall every time...

sigh.

i'll be over here.

This discussion was created by SolemnDragon (593956) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Why Idol is bad for music (opinion) More

Why Idol is bad for music (opinion)

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  • If you think modern Pop Music and Art have anything in common. So a talent show that "rates" Pop Music is clearly not even remotely interested in Art.

    Besides Kellie Pickler is hawt.
    • um lou? no she isn't crazy... her opinion is _valid_

      in fact... you just reinforced her point. fanning the flames of pop/idol is *bad* for music. music *is* art. idol is doing further damage to it. you've illustrated that.
      • Not to be flip(per) you are completely and totally WRONG.

        Pop Music is NOT art any more than Velveeta is cheese. They are similar. They look a like. The have many of the same characteristics but they are not art.

        Pop music written by committee, with industry tested hooks and topics is to art as assembly line punched ashtrays are. There's nothing remotely artful about it. Yes, the ashtray uses curves and forms used in actual art but it is hardly art.

        Having 24 moderately actractive people with moderately g
        • okay it really has to be me. i'm not making sense. its been like this all week. i'm going to give this one last shot, then i'm going to shut up and be over here.

          i know this show isn't about art!!! i know that i know that i know that i know it!

          the whole point of this is that this show, while not art... is doing damage to what is art!!!!

          sheesh. that point is valid.

          okay, i'm done. i really do think its me. i can't write clearly... everything i say is being misinterpreted.
          • Explain to me how a drawing of the Mona Lisa hurts the Mona Lisa.
            • blinder is right.

              Velveeta is bad for cheese.

              A drawing of the mona lisa is not bad for art. Those stupid 'happy trees' are not even bad for art, because at least it tries to teach people how to paint a tree.

              However, the paint-by--numbers velvet elvis may be bad for art.

              It is mistaken for art by people who have the ability to paint other things, great things, that will go untapped because they were busy making a buck.

              They made their choice and it is all of our loss.

              This is why i am in favour of paying artists
              • Look I love you two dearly but you're taking two arguments that are valid but unrelated.

                Look not liking AI is one thing, calling AI the destructor of art is simply invalid.

                Art is important and should be valued and compensated. It is sad when talented people go for the cash.

                However, none of this is the fault or exacerbated by AI. It may be that AI is a victim of all of this.
                • it isn't the destructor of art. It is bad for art, the way too much mountain dew is bad for your diet...

                  It is bad for you the way too much velveeta is.

                  We love you too, and you can still watch it. We know you secretly like good music, even if you try to convince us otherwise.

                  And Queen Sophie will eventually outlaw all such entertainment among the slaves, anyway, so it will be a moot point.
              • It is mistaken for art by people who have the ability to paint other things, great things, that will go untapped because they were busy making a buck.

                I understand your opinion, and to some extent it might be true, but I still have to disagree.

                I think that pop, chart music and American Idol brings music to those who otherwise wouldn't hear it at all. I don't think the choice is between crap and real art, I think the choice for most is between crap or nothing.

                Music that makes you think, feel, or pay attention
              • Comment removed based on user account deletion
                • Dare I say that America has *never* been a nation that can tell the difference? When have "the masses" ever been able to tell the difference between good and bad cheese?

                  On the flip side, as a foreigner, let me add this view:

                  I believe we have overall better basic food quality on the other side of the pond. By which I mean that if you go into a random grocery store in the U.S and a random grocery store in Sweden, the swedish one would give you a better product.

                  The problem is, in the Swedish store you don't ha
                  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
                  • By which I mean that if you go into a random grocery store in the U.S and a random grocery store in Sweden, the swedish one would give you a better product.

                    The same thing is generally true of Germany, though IME the food is a bit better in Norway and the Netherlands (and German food tends to also be better down south than 'round these parts, maybe because of the greater French and Italian influence). However, as pissy as people here get about their food, I suspect they do know the difference. Certainly I'

                • my point is not that people shouldn't do bad art. Gods, i'd be crucified if that were the case, have you seen my paintings? but my point is that we should be giving the effort to find amatuer GOOD art the prime time, not the effort to get them to spout other people's music, styles, and so on in the attempt to be popular.

                  Sam, you know i'm all for art for art's sake. Give them crayons and put them to work.

                  My problem is that these kids are stricly colour-by-numbers... and capable of better... and the object is
              • Two things worth noting on the subject of America and cheese...

                1.) American Cheese is a name slapped onto "processed cheese food product" by the rest of the world, because only the U.S. would call such a thing cheese (which, by definition of the vast majority of the other cheese-producing nations of the world, isn't). This is sad in part because America does have its own cheeses-- namely specific varieties of mild cheddars that are also associated with the U.S. But really, our wallets are voting for "proc
              • i agree that there is bad art, and the tripe on american idol is generally part of this category.

                as an artist, i've come to a very painful realisation. most people don't know and don't care if art is good or bad. they care if they like it, although not always that much. the people who are informed from reality tv about what makes good art are for the most part not the people who would bother to seek art that wasn't pre-packaged for them, and the also probably wouldn't take the time to appreciate somethin
              • I like fake cheese, but I despise american idol*(it's bad for the soul).

                Discuss.

                Grades will be handed out on saturday.

                * - Freakin' diva search-fest. It's starsearch minus the comedy looking for the next Celine Dion**. It's a lobotomy carried over the airwaves. It's like slamming down a keg of barley wine w/o the culture.

                ** - At least she, like Rush and Brian Adams is Canadian.
            • First off, it doesn't (hurt the Mona Lisa). There's a good chance that anybody who picks up a pen and tries to draw her themselves (and has half a decent appreciation for the painting) will immediate realize just how difficult it is to make such art-- this is a GOOD thing. But this isn't what the show's about. It's about finding "the next Mona Lisa", out of whatever crappy half-assed pile of amateur drawings that can assembled in two weeks, and slapping that title on as first prize. There IS NO "next Mo
          • Ok.....so which one of you two is playing the part of Simon, and which one is Paula? :)

            But seriously, I do kind of see both points, even though I have never actually watched the show. To those in the "know", it is not art, because its just cookie cutter crap. But to the majority of America, it is changing what they think is "art" in relation to music, and that sucks for the rest of us that enjoy creativity and ability of our favorite musicians.
        • Hey, uhh....

          What's the definition of pop music?
          • Pop music is often defined as music produced commercially, for profit, or "as a matter of enterprise not art" though it may more usefully be defined by market, ideology, production, and aesthetics. Pop "is designed to appeal to everyone" and "doesn't come from any particular place or mark off any particular taste." It is "not driven by any signifigant ambition except profit and commercial reward...and, in musical terms, it is essentially conservative." It is "provided from on high (by record companies, radi
            • Interesting. So, your tactic is to pull out the one paragraph out the the entire article that agrees with your straw many that the term "pop music" refers to music designed for a particular utilitatian purpose... and ignore the rest which makes reference to people like Sinatra, Aretha Franklin, and The Beatles.

              OK, I think I'm clear on your position now.
              • What did I not Link to the article? Was that not the FIRST paragraph?

                The Beatles early stuff isn't terribly artful btw. Later they got it. See around Rubber SOul...
                • do you mean "artful" or do you mean "deep"? They're orthogonal. I think their early songs expressed a passion for innocence, life, music, and love. Assuming you'd agree with that summary of their music, why is that not "artistic"?

                  FWIW, I think American Idol completely propagates shitty standards for the musical art and pop music can completely be artistic. If you tell me that Blur's The Great Escape is not a work of art, I'd just laugh in your face Lou! :) You may not like it, but it's most definitely
                  • 1) Even the Beatles will tel you the early stuff was sub par and further not entirely their own creation (often, not always)

                    2) Who the Hell is Blur? Is that the song Fantasia sang? --that's snarkiness, I really don't know anything by Blur.
                    • hope you know yer my bud, but if you don't know anything by Blur, that would be one reason you don't know that pop can be art. :D

                      britney is prefabbed crap.
                      american idol is a popularity contest.
                      pop music isn't necessarily prefabbed crap or a popularity contest.

                      pop music is probably the best general term for my favorite genre of music. it includes, roughly, stevie wonder (or more specifically, at times, soul, motown, & R&B--but definitely pop too), blur, oasis, beatles, radiohead, beach boys, supergr
                    • No no no.

                      No.

                      No.

                      More importantly, No.

                      Velvet Underground was never even popular.
                    • yer a loony. a loony tune.

                      VU *is* popular. Just not the *most* popular.

                      tell me that "where is the sun?" is not a pop tune. or Oh Sweet Nothin' or Sweet Jane for that matter. Shooshamjingada!!!

                      you've got a really weird thing goin' on here. :)
                    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • okay, this is just perfectly written. i'm serious... this is pure fucking brilliance. this is exactly what i've always felt about this stuff. you just managed to put it in a way that i couldn't.

    you are absolutely right. the parallel between mathmatics and art is actually quite brilliant... its the same kind of thing manifesting itself in a different medium.

    shows like idol is indeed bad for music. it teaches "us" that empty-headed "fame" is better than the actual art form of performing/making music. fuck...
  • Well, you bring up some good points, and I always say that arriving to one's own conclusions one's own way is sacred and far more important than the conclusions or even the way.

    I see Idol as orthoganal to the true pursuit of art, and can even see where in some ways it HELPS. Wow, but Idol's gotten to be a bee in lotsa people's bonnets, and I am glad for the anger and raise hackles-- it's gotten people to TALK ABOUT and share their opinions.

    And for the record, I rather despise the concept the show myself.

  • Thanks (Score:2)

    by ryanr ( 30917 ) *
    I had never hear Eddie playing Fur Elise before.

    In case anyone else hasn't:

    http://www.technology.niagarac.on.ca/staff/mboldin /audio/evhsolo.wav [niagarac.on.ca]

  • Bear with me, because in a lot of senses, yes, it is about popularity, you're right. In other senses, though, subjecting art to the test of what is popular means that you will arrive at a narrow band of what is acceptable to most, and exclude what is unusual or appeals to only a few.

    This is why the national endowment for the arts used to "get in trouble" for funding horrible things. Too bad, really. I actually miss hearing about actual experimental art. It seems to have gone away as of the mid 90s.

  • Art is the attempt to depict truth in some medium, and in some particular fashion. It is typically based on emotional/esthetic appeal, but that is not required. Art is beautiful, to an observer, to the extent that that person perceives the underlying depiction of truth. This depends both on the ability of the artist, the accuracy or fidelity if you will, and the "eye" of the observer - the observer's context. Some art is very culture-specific, for instance, so that an observer from a different culture m
  • I think you are talking about two orthogonal things here, something that ellem alluded to, that are are the two truths of the show:
    1. American Idol is built around music.
    2. American Idol is not about music.

    Authority isn't Authoritativeness

    This is the paradox of "Authority" versus "Authoritativeness". One is the genuine article, one is the simulacrum of the genuine article. A real MD versus "I'm not a doctor but I play one on TV". The difference between a police and kids playing cops n' robbers in the back ya

    • Dang, I forgot to include my example of the last one. Anyway, as the domain is inherently fuzzy, the perception of "genius" is equally so. So: Sam Cooke is seen as a great pop idol, then Sam Cooke is seen as yesterday's news, then Sam Cooke is both ridiculed but liked by a very small minority for his new "socially aware direction", then Sam Cooke is forgotten, then Sam Cooke is brought back by a DJ who doesn't know better, then Sam Cooke is seen with fresh eyes, then Sam Cooke is written about decades la
  • I understand what you are trying to say, but I cannot agree. Art and Music are far larger than any one person, place, or thing. American Idol is simply not large enough to ever taint Art or Music. Indeed not even popular music, and the culture of mediocrity surrounding it and the mainstream cannot harm either Art or Music. They are simply too big and too powerful of forces for a mere hundred million people or so to derail. Art and Music exist as entities uncorruptable by humans. They exist out of time
  • "Art is not about popularity, but about accuracy, like math."

    Art IS math.
  • Reasoning? When the "fakes" and "wannabes" start to attain "popularity", more "fakes" clamour to flood the market, taking up valuable shelf-space available to the "real" product. In time, there will be so little shelf-space available for "real" product, that the producers of the "real thing" will find it hard to hawk their wares and risk going out of business.

    Idol (and Velveeta (and fast food joints (and "reality" tv shows (etc)))) panders to the masses and takes up valuable viewing/listening timeduring whi
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • Okay, maybe Velveeta was a bad choice (I don't even know what it is - we don't do fake cheese here) but McDonalds is a better analogy. 20 years ago, there used to be "Fish'n'Chip" shops in every suburb and small town here. The Fish'n'Chip shops used to sell fish and chips (hence the name), hamburgers, hot dogs, meat pies, milkshakes, etc. These were typically "Mon'n'Pop" operations and many produced great, tasty food - cooked fresh while you wait. As McDonald's started to infiltrate our culture, the fish an
        • veveeta is a cheese-ish food product that is like a solid block of... well, there's nothing i can compare it to, but it has a low melting point, and high homogenization, so that it doesn't separate. it's like a cheese sauce block that you can melt, to be honest. It's not as nasty to the uninitiated as marmite, but that's only because the uninitiated put thick layers of either on things, and velveeta doesn't change much as the dose varies.

          Velveeta is named i think for it's 'velvety' thivk texture when melted
          • Sounds nasty! There are some fake foods available down here, but not many. At least we still have real culinary delights such as Vegemite. (Marmite? Bletcherous stuff!)

            Unfortunately we do have fake pop idols courtesy of Australian Idol. Thankfully they tend to disappear off the charts within a couple of months of the show finishing. Unfortunately they keep making new seasons of the damned thing... 8^(
  • You get the prize of valuable insight. You have used it wisely up to now, and thanks for sharing it.
  • looks like you may have spilled some of Wicked's gunpowder. I'll stay out of the debate, except to to add that this is why I listen to The Podsafe Music Network [podshow.com]. New artists, new music, not cookie cutter clones of the last big hit.

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