Journal SlashChick's Journal: Women & Slashdot. 37
Well, I was going to let this (and my reply to it) go until tomorrow, but since I've been preoccupied with it all day, I think I'll speak my mind on the issue now.
First of all, I've currently received 57 replies and 30 moderations on this comment. I'm actually pretty surprised by the vocal replies I've gotten (and yes, I've read all of them.) It's made me seriously think about several things, which have been weighing me down pretty heavily over the past few hours.
As far as my comment goes, I stand by every word. It was wrong to make the sexist joke that geek made. It would have been equally wrong to make any classist, stereotypical joke to such a public audience (something like 30,000 to 100,000 people read a +5 comment.) I'm glad I took the stand I did. I'm not so happy to get bashed for it, but then again, under the guise of anonymity, people will say a lot of nasty things.
I don't think hate is right, and I classify that joke as hate. No matter what premise, joking or not, it's still hate to make such lowball humor at aim it at 51% of the human race. I know I wasn't the only one who was insulted, and I'm glad that I had the guts to stand up and say "That's not right."
I saw a couple of other interesting comments in there, which I'd like to reply to at a later time. However, I will address a few of them now.
My nickname. I don't necessarily see "chick" as degrading. It really depends on the context. Someone guessed it right when they said that SlashChick just has a ring to it. "SlashFemale"? No. "SlashGirl"? That's not really my image. Feel free to suggest soomething else -- I'll listen. In the meantime, I'll stick with SlashChick because it's grown on me.
As far as the Women in Linux HOWTO, I also agree that some of it makes females look bad (way too sensitive, etc.) The paper wandered off course toward the bottom, but I think the top half is quite significant, especially the mailing list experiences (considering that I've had similar ones.) A teacher of mine once told me that the way to tell that you are a minority is if your actions are considered to be actions of your entire class. For instance, if a group of 30 American tourists heads to France, and the tourists are obnoxious, the French people they meet will equate Americans with being obnoxious. Similarly, if you're surrounded by shallow women, you might think that all women are shallow.
I'm here to tell you that we're not.
I'd like to ask all of you to think twice before making classist comments. Even if you think they're just funny jokes, why hurt someone... especially if that someone is your friend? Being a jerk will get you attention (until people stop listening, and they inevitably will), but being nice will get you more long-lasting friendships. I, for one, would rather have the friendships.
Um. (Score:2)
He should have been more sensitive about the opposite sex.
But aren't you taking this a bit too seriously?
This is only a website, after all.
Re:Um. (Score:1)
A web site such as Slashdot is a legitimate forum of communication (although many question Slashdot's value, in particular).
I am annoyed at people who say "it's just IRC" or "it's just the Internet", like it wasn't a valid form of social communication. On Internet fora, people have friends. People have reputations. People can be hurt. People will likely take you seriously.
fine lines (Score:3, Interesting)
But.
I think that extreme speech can sometimes be disarming. Words are just words, but some words can be hurtful. Using those same words in an ironic or innocent way can help to take away their power.
The best example of this that I can think of is my girlfriend's family. They moved here from Saigon in '75, speaking no English at all. They lived in abject poverty for years, as her father worked his way (as a janitor, mind you) through night school to get an associate's degree in accounting. Twenty years later theirs was a moderately successful upper-middle-class family with a son out of law school and a daughter in her residency as a surgeon. One of those classic success stories.
Growing up as part of the boat-people community, her family naturally had to deal with discrimination and negative opinions. Just imagine my shock when I was hanging out with them and I heard her brother-- the lawyer-- joking call his father a "goddamn gook!"
Her dad punched her brother on the arm and launched into Vietnamese, and I didn't know enough at the time to follow it, but they both started cracking up.
I asked her about it later. She said that for as long as she could remember, the members of her family have called each other "gook." She said it was pretty funny: she would sometimes get called "gook" in school, by kids who meant it as an insult of course, and she'd just turn around and say, "Yeah? What?" It didn't bother her at all, because it was, in their house, almost a term of affection.
Ever since, she's been "goddamn gook" and I've been "you honkey," or any number of nasty Vietnamese words for white people that I can't spell.
Sometimes, in the right context, the gratuitous use of offensive speech can serve a useful purpose: diluting the impact of the word or words to the point where it just doesn't hurt any more.
words and meaning. (Score:2)
It is possible to call one person "negro" or "chick" and dont mean anything hatefull by it. Thats why I think that you should keep your nick slashChick, no mather what people are saying.
Re:This is far more common in Mexico (Score:2, Insightful)
--
Re:This is far more common in Mexico (Score:1)
in that regard. I'll take the piss out of my friends,
and I will make jokes with racist and sexist undertones
like the one that started this all off.
But I will only to it in the right forum. My friends know
me and how I treat members of the opposite sex and strangers
of other races, and know that I am trying to be funny and
that I don't support those stereotypes. In a place like
slashdot, it's harder to know whether someone who makes a
sexist joke is trying to be funny or really thinks that way.
Predictable responses (Score:1)
Don't mistake lack of vocal support on a board like Slashdot for a sign that you're alone in thinking as you do. Some of us sit on our tongues (hmmm, what a picture that conjures up!) in a lot of the social chit-chat because we're really here for the techie stuff. That doesn't mean we all disagree with you that the joke was rather stupid and shallow.
MeToo! (Score:2)
*sigh* (Score:2)
I usually don't have this urge to post comments in people's journals, though sometimes I do feel like I should let my opinion be known, to let people see my view of things that have happened and to let others know how I think about certain events, despite the fact the majority of people around here probably don't care and never will. But hey, that's the internet and if you start taking stuff too serious, you'll end up all whiny and flakey like SlashChick here.
Aaaanywas, back onto the topic at hand. Yes, I'll admit that I was part of the group of people who bashed/disagreed/whatever with SlashChick. Some people will wonder why I did that, why I wouldn't be silent and let things happen or even support her because someone made a so called sexist remark about women. That is because there simply wasn't a sexist remark, it was a joke. Yes, it was a simple joke aimed at no one in particular that simply involved women, but for the same matter could have involved Europeans, Asians, gays, Mormons, whatever. Maybe this joke was, according to some people, in bad taste. That's entirely possible, we all gather in a free and open community so everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, including having a sense of humour. However, simply because a joke is in bad taste according to you, doesn't mean you should put on you "Fundamentalist Feminist" hat and go on a rampant crusade to kill all jokes about women.
You see, jokes simply happen about any general population. Lots of simple yet fun jokes are based on grossly exaggerated generalizations of specific groups of people. Sure, some are politicall incorrect, like jokes about jews or gays or muslims, but you simply can't argue about humour. No matter how sick or politically incorrect a joke, someone will like it and all you can do is ruin things for some people if you throw a hissy fit. Just don't throw said fit, shrug things off and let them happen. They will happen anyways, wether you scream about it or not.
Incidently, this reminds me of a good friend of mine at college. He's Turkish and turkish people are often the butt of Dutch jokes. He accepts the occasional joke about Turkish people, I accept the occasional joke about Dutch people. Same thing with another friend of mine, one of the only women who follow an ICT course like me.
Lastly, your nickname is a bloody wrong choice from the start, yet predictable really. I also expected a rant about the aforementioned joke from you in your Journal, so I looked from time to time and lo and behold... The prophecy hath cometh true. If you don't want to be the butt of female jokes, try not to sound like a bloody feminist. I glanced through your Journal earlier and you really do seem to emphasize on you being female, as you do with your nickname as well. So what if you are? I still think you're a whiny idiot, regardless of your gender.
Yes, this comment is cruel, harsh, contains quite a few flames and could be interpreted as a troll. I am only speaking my mind here and giving you people my harsh and uncut opinion.
My 0,02...
Re:*sigh* (Score:2)
A distinction that is often lost is that while you may not see your joke/phrase/whatever as offensive to a group you don't know if it is. I used to call non-Jews goyim thinking that it couldn't be offensive until one of my friends pointed out that it bothered him. I didn't realize until then how degroatory that word was. It had never occured to me that I could hurt someone saying something I had grown up with.
Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
Re:*sigh* (Score:2)
Everyone deserves a fair chance and should be rated on skills, both academic and social, not on gender, religion, sexual orientation and the like. This is where things clash with the pro-(minority) organizations and streams like feminism or fundamentalism. I agree that women deserve the exact same oppurtunities as everyone else. But don't overreact like most feminists I know who try to enforce female domination upon society. Some of you feminists are almost as bad as fundamentalists, only instead of forcing the islam upon people you try to enforce social and political female domination upon us. This is what I disagree with. Fair chances are okay, enforcing your crap upon the rest of the world isn't.
And jokes aren't meant to hurt people. Generalizing people because of disrespect like you did is something entirely different. If you tell me a joke about non-jewish people being something, then I'd treat it as a joke and not take it as a personal insult. If you'd call me a "goyim" (whatever it means) simply because you are unable to gather enough respect for me because of my religion (of which you don't know a thing, I could be jewish as well.), then it's something entirely else. You people out of everyone should know how bad it is to generalize others.
Re:*sigh* (Score:2, Insightful)
Disclaimer: I don't consider myself a feminist, just a woman.
Being a woman is not like being a man in a dress. Being a woman in the tech field is harder, because of the men in the tech field. There is the assumption that you will be rated on your skills more in this arena, and it's true to some extent.
However, at my current company, there are four women in the IT department. Six if you count two other departments (Global Ops & R&D IT). Of those, two are in the helpdesk. One's doing telecommunications and administrative work. Two are manager+ (one used to be a techie, the other didn't). And then there's me. The NT admin. (Not by choice, by chance.) There are easily three times as many men in those departments.
I've seen IT groups with many more women. I've been in IT groups where I'm the only one. In small groups, everyone gets treated similarly, but in larger groups, it does tend to become a "guys against girls" situation, where the women end up doing mostly clerical tasks, and the men do the lifting, pushing, pulling, technical tasks. I've seen women laughed at for wanting to assist in the technical side of things, whether or not they could run rings around their co-workers.
It ends up being playground politics (ie. "Girls have cooties") in companies that don't see a problem with sexist jokes like the one that sparked this debate. People use jokes as a shield, to 'protect' them from being abused for what they really want to say.
Just because you say "jokes aren't meant to hurt people" doesn't mean it's true. It's not polite in this current age to denegrate women to their faces, to reduce them to body parts, but you can do it in a joke, and claim "It's a joke, it's funny", even though it means the same thing.
Re:*sigh* (Score:2)
I know what you mean. Things changing into a "men vs women" idea like you described is just pathetic and most likely the fault of the men involved. Really a shame though, like I pointed out before, I know one girl who is good with computers but she's also one of the best at my college as well. I'd really hate it if she ended up in some position as you described.
The only people to blame for this are immature men who are stuck with primary school ideas that women are inept at "male tasks" like system administration, which is nonsense. System administration is something that no gender is more adept at. Then again, we can't expect a sudden change anytime soon about this sort of behaviour, but I really do hope it happens some day where everyone gets an equal oppurtunity...
The joke bit... Well, I refer back to what I posted before about everyone having a different sense of humour. But I'm pretty convinced the original joke wasn't meant to actually hurt any female personally. So just take it as a joke and ignore it if you disagree with it :)
Re:*sigh* (Score:1)
Since I was running late this morning, I didn't put my addendum on there. I enjoy a good joke as much as anyone. I think that it's fun to poke fun at how certain groups are stuck on themselves. But if there's a disproportionate amount of ribbing for one group over another, that's where I draw the line. It's rather difficult online to specify whether a joke you post is indicative of your mood at the time, or if you joke continually about (insert group of people here) and this is just one of the cleaner ones.
The sad part about blaming 'immature men' is that many geeks are socially immature, and have very little experience dealing with women. They see women as "men in a dress" and treat them that way. They get into 'pissing contests' about whose machine is bigger, faster, better, which OS is 'da bomb', etc. They make inappropriate jokes and don't understand when women get offended.
Re:*sigh* (Score:1)
The only problem I see with that particular chain of logic is the lack of a distinction between work and non-work (sic) environments. Under a working environment, the first priority must be the collective good of the company, and to achieve that, it is unacceptable to have team members making jokes that can be construed as denigrating to anyone else involved. Teamwork here is key.
However, outside of a working environment, my sentiments in that respect are nearly directly reversed -- tell all the jokes you can! Treading lightly around subjects like differences between sexes, cultures, ancestry, etc. only forces our social ills into an interaction on a lower level. Communication is stifled, and communication is our only hope at improving these situations. Walking on eggshells only emphasizes differences, whereas joking about them serves to point out the utter absurdity of the whole matter.
This is important to the discussion because Slashdot is NOT a working environment. Hence, Geek is pretty much free to say whatever he wants. Yes, his comment was somewhat assinine, and you have the right to think whatever you want about him. However, he has a right to his opinions (and stereotypes, for that matter), and in a social environment, his assinine remarks simply don't provide justification for verbal attacks. Better yet -- turn the tables and couch your rebuttals in the form of another joke. The last thing you EVER want to do to promote your cause is cross the line into Righteous Indignation.
I've been called some incredibly foul and insulting things over the years. For that matter, the way my friends and I commonly refer to each other would probably curl your hair if you didn't know what's going on. My point, however, is that it's taught me not to take the comments and opinions of others too seriously. Insults and words lose their insulting meaning through popular use and acceptance.
Re:*sigh* (Score:1)
I've been called some incredibly foul and insulting things over the years. For that matter, the way my friends and I commonly refer to each other would probably curl your hair if you didn't know what's going on... etc. point about not taking things too seriously.
There is one key difference, though. I have no problem if someone is talking to me and wants to make fun of me because I'm a woman. But a joke like the one this discussion is about is different. It implies that ALL women are stupid, bad, etc. It's not directed at one or two women, it's directed at us all. If I joke is made at me, I can stand up for myself. But can I stand up for 51% of the world's population?
SlashChick, I respect you for standing up and stating your opinion. Although it may cause some to form a worse opinion of females (especially geek females), I think it also opened the eyes of many who would have let that joke slip by.
Re:*sigh* (Score:2)
I'm going to be terribly honest and blunt here, but it was a goddamn joke. It didn't make me thing of her as someone trying to stand up against disrespect, it made me think of SlashChick as some stressed up feminist bint with no sense of humour. I'm pretty sure allot of people agree with me on this. Stop whining.
Re:*sigh* (Score:2)
The problem arises when 'equality' takes over unequally. If I made a derogatory joke about a woman in mixed company, I'd probably be chastized (unless they were the lowbrow type), but if a woman made the same joke, the women would laugh, and the men would either laugh or keep quiet (because even if it does bother us, if we show it, we're weak). I can't tell a Jewish joke (that is to say, I can't necessarily tell a joke making fun of Jews; I tell Jewish jokes all the time, as long as I know they're Jewish beforehand), but a Jew could tell a goyim joke if they so chose, though I don't know how funny that would be, which is probably why I haven't heard any.
There was a commercial on a while ago for a Saturn with a half-door, to make it easier to get into the back with. Two old ladies were ogling men from their porch as they (the men) tried to bend over to put their stuff in the back seat, but then when the guy in jeans (who would, presumably, be a treat to the eyes) got to his car, he didn't have to bend over at all. Now, if it had been men checking out a woman's derriere (or breasts, for that matter), the company would've gotten sued into oblivion, but when the tables are turned, it's fine.
My point is, yes, you can go too far, but 1) you can only go too far against some groups, but others it's fine to exploit/bash/whatever, and 2) just because someone is offended doesn't mean it's not just them.
That being said, the guy that made the original joke was an asshole, case closed. He did, in fact, go too far. I still laughed though.
--Dan
Reveals something about the geek crowd (Score:2)
Identity (Score:2)
What I wanted to point out is that by making associating a class into your identity, one weakens oneself against attacks on the class as a whole. You make yourself the defender of the faithful, whether you want to be or not, and it makes it difficult to see the point where a classist dig is friendly and inviting - because there are such times.
For instance, I'm a male geek. But I'm not likely to present either of those classes as the first answer to "who are you?" And, as a result, if someone says something about men being slope-browed football worshipping brutes, I don't take offense. Because I'm not like that, and I've known men who are like that. If the speaker honestly believes that, their loss. But usually they're teasing.
I'll grant, men do have certain social advantages they can lean on to protect them from the sharp tongues of their accusers, but the biggest advantage is that no man (except in the last decade) has felt like he needs to defend Masculinity from public attack.
And it's not like I don't belong to some groups in a minority, but most of them are by choice. It's entirely a state of mind.
My 2 cents (Score:2)
60+ responses. Hall of Flaim time, my friend.
chill... (Score:2)
Honestly when I'm watching TV and that shampoo commercial comes on. You know the one where they say something like "Hair is like a man you have to tell it what to do." I just sit back and laugh. Yes it's derogatory to me, but it's still funny.
In every joke there is a grain of truth put in such a way as to be absurd. That's what comedy is and if you can't laugh at yourself then who can you laugh at?
Might I suggest you grab some Carlos Mencia comedy if you want to see what I mean.
Sarcasm? (Score:2)
Have you considered the possibility that the post in question could be sarcastic (ie making fun of people who tell those jokes) and/or was interpreted that way by the people who modded it funny?
And your comment that a joke which is hurtful to 51% of the population is interesting. Would it be any different if it was a joke aimed at a hypothetical 49% of the population? Or aimed at 4.9% of the population? Or .49% of the population?
It never ends... (Score:2)
I'm with you. The joke was in poor taste. My response would have likely fallen along the sarcastic rather than the factual offended; which in turn would have gotten a different response... (because all I *ever* talk about is my hair, my nails, and the latest fashions. I mean, yesterday's shoes are just *so* cliche)
On the other hand, I'm not sure things like the HOWTO manual help. It made some good points, like 'don't hold your meetings in the back of a dark alley' - but on the whole I wonder if it's doing more damage than good. I was really put off by the whole 'girls have lower self-esteem' point they kept bringing up. And while it's true that it's not always the most comfortable thing to be stared as a the combination goddess/freak (you're either too good to be true or there's something wrong with you) sticking it out for more than 30 minutes tends to put that all to rest.
But I guess that only solidifies my point even more. What someone sees as a very accurate portrayal of the situation is completely wrong to another. Stick to your guns -- you'll be better off for it in the long run.
Double standards... (Score:2)
Can you tell me that you would have made the same comment if it were about men or some other group that you are not apart of? Would you complain if in a group of your girl-friends, one made a similar crack?
I understand that you are sensitive to being catagorized in that fashion, but please realize the value of a joke (even thought I didn't think it was particularly funny) as being something meant to be humorous.
What about if the poster made a stereotypical non-pejorative remark, like how women like shopping or own lots of shoes, would that be as bad?
Besides the only people who would take that comment seriously are the people that already hold those views.
I am, however, quite glad that you did respond becuase of the interesting reading that it left in its wake.
I too am tired as being classified as a social outcast with no social skills with women, because that's what a lot of people truly think about males who know a whole lot about computers. That doesn't make it not funny once to tell in a joke.
On your nickname... (Score:2)
You're very correct, your nickname does have a good ring to it. It still makes you a sex object though. I'm Jester99? Am I a man or a woman? Am I black or white? Jewish, Catholic, or Muslim? Who knows! I could be anything. But right now, to you all, I'm just a clown.
The second you are "SlashChick" instead of SomeNerdOnSlashdot, you've identified: I am a Woman. And there's now no way that anybody on Slashdot will ever read your posts except through that lens. You invite prejudice into the medium where there originally was none.
If you were just CaptainMuppet (to pick a totally random name from the sky), people would just read your posts at face value. But by being a "chick" (which, according to m-w.com, is "slang for a young woman"), you've made a direct statement about how you want people to look at you and think about you. Dict.org even suggests "dame" and "skirt" as drop-in synonyms for "chick". While those terms might be a bit more from our parents' generation, the stigma's still there.
So, no, as a woman, you don't deserve anything less than equality, respect, and understanding from all corners of the human race.
But remember, when you post with a nickname like yours, people will make judgements about what you've written that you didn't intend them to make. And it is your fault. The word has specific connotations in the English language, and there's no way you can pretend that we won't associate them with you, if they're part of your nickname.
And back on the subject of the joke: Lighten the fuck up already; I get enough jokes about how dumb, unfashionable, pig-headed, football-obsessed, you-name-it us men are just from watching television. And I don't really care, because I can deal. But maybe that's because men are stronger than women inside.
Yay for PC (Score:1)
Even better, you can get still more attention by posting about it in your journal. 30 comments, most of which are downright simpering with praise for your "unpopular" opinion. Give me a break. People are falling all over themselves trying to look intellectually superior by damning the evil inappropriate humor. Another victory for the Mutual Admiration Society. Let freedom ring.
So here's my question: If this is how you react to a joke you don't like, how much tolerance should you expect the next time you voice an opinion that truly is unpopular?
Darwin's Solution (Score:2)
Don't worry about geek too much, SlashChick. Darwin will take care of him. With that attitude, there is NO chance he is going to procreate.
PS: Kalidasa is a guy's name.
Let me quote (Score:2)
Trashy jokes, the kind that the XFL-set loves are usually non-Scottish (i.e., crap). They are not funny; they are degrading and stupid.
Having said that, I firmly believe that my feelings are my own. Only I can determine if they are hurt or not. Only I can choose how I (re)act when someone spews garbage my way. I can rise up and punch their lights out, or I can roll my eyes and walk away. Recognize that those who desperately need some "straightening out" will never get it. You can't force them. I believe you need to stand up for what you believe in, but with the expectation that you won't change the minds of the fools you are addressing. Perhaps you will cause a third-party to think about it and (hopefully) agree with you. If so, great. If not, don't worry about it and move on to the next XFL-trog.
Cheers!
Holy shit, I've been pwned! (Score:1, Offtopic)
I thought I did good with 37 replies and 23 mods... but that's fucking amazing work!
Grrl power!
*sigh* (Score:1)
Stereotypes, while they do not define "all", they do define the most visible percentage of a certain population. The most boiled-down average. If you stop 1,000 women on the street, most of them will be incapable of an intelligent thought. If you stop 1,000 men on the street, they'll be sex-obsessed, perverse, and moronic. Does this mean every man is? No.
I'm horribly prejudiced. Not against the individual, but against the group. All groups. Humanity, as an indivuidual is amazing. Humanity as a whole is amazing. Humanity, as a group is a vulgar thing.
I don't get pissed off at those who repeat stereotypes. I get pissed off at those who perpetuate them. At the women who can't get off their rear ends and learn something for a change. At the geeks who talk so many miles over peoples heads that people get defensive at me when I try to talk them through some simple task on the computer. At the guys who watch football, scratch themselves, grunt, and can't admit to any emotion no matter how slight.
THOSE are the people to be pissed off at, not the morons who think they're funny when they repeat a vulgar joke. But at those who make the joke, at least in some cases, true.
-Sara
strange discussion (Score:1)
it looks (from outside) like there's a fence in the middle.
on one side people are screaming: get over it, it was a joke, freedom of speech is important, get a more useful nick, etc, etc
on the other side people are screaming: i am offended, don't stereotype me, people should consider other peoples feelings more, i can call myself whatever i want (/chick) etc, etc
nobody is listening though (rare exceptions excluded). there obviously is no difference between "geeks" and "normal humans", either male or female.
yes, you read that right. i think you are as normal a female as any other, SlashChick. and i think all the typical responses you get are as male as it gets. on both sides of the fence people claim to understand the other side, and also claim the other side doesn't understand them. (or, in the case of males, think the other side shouldn't make such a fuss about it
maybe we all should try to stop focussing on the differences we have as males and females, and start looking at things we have in common. responding to something that bothers you is a. unproductive, since it diverges attention from the subject of discussion, and b. a choice (see all these horrible personal improvement books by covey et al).
so: if we choose not to be provoked by posts we view as offensive, we can focus better on the discussion. meta discussion deserves a new thread and/or a journal entry. put it in your
btw. i do have an opinion about female-unfriendly posts, and you would like it
kind regards,
meneer de koekepeer