Comment clarifications on a false straw man (Score 1) 874
> There are more than enough passages in the Koran to justify the
> killing of non-Mulsims
False
> 4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who
> disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols (unbelief).
> So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.
The words translated as "believe" (iman) and "disbelieve" (kufr) don't refer to the state of being a Muslim or not. They refer to
1. "putting belief into practice" (iman) through good and righteous works; and
2. "covering the truth and fighting it" (kufr), ie, persecution on account of believing and practising Islam. In the second case there is not a hint of fighting, let alone, killing, someone because of their belief.
Also, the word is "fight", not "do battle". Fighting is not necessarily something physical.
> 2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for
> Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against > wrong-doers.
Again, the context is defense from persecution. The word mis-translated above as "wrong-doers" (zaalimiin) actually means "oppressors". That is, oppression must be fought and defended against, not someone else's belief.
> The second one sounds good - except that the Koran defines a wrong-doer
> very broadly. It is a class that includes freethinkers, polytheists,
> atheists and non-Muslims that preach their own religion.
Who on earth told you this?!? Islam, as exemplified by the Prophet, is more interested in actions than belief. There are many cases of people in the early generations of Islam who were openly atheist etc and left alone to themselves. Again, the context is persecution and oppression.
> 4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye > may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till
> they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back then take > them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper > from among them.
Again, very bad translation. Better:
4:89 They long that ye should cover the facts even as they cover the facts, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not comforters from them till they migrate in the way of Allah; if they betray you for another allegiance then take them and kill them according to the manner in which ye find them; choose no comforter nor helper from among them.
This refers to hypocrites who claim outward allegiance to your community but who would betray you to your enemies given half a chance. The test for this particular hypocrisy is that they "migrate" with you and share in your hardships and difficulties -- assuming they are really sincere. But if they betray you then the penalty for treason is death.
Death penalty for treason is a well-established norm in law throughout the ages. Nobody likes a traitor.
Note also the "according to the manner in which ye find them" as opposed to "wherever ye find them". The second is a very bad translation. The point is that if you find them red-handed in the act of treason then their punishment will be death. Otherwise they may be forgiven or given another punishment. Again, there are many cases of this in the Prophet's life, where he forgave or commuted.
> 4:101 And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail
> (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In
> truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
Those who oppress you, steal your property, and otherwise persecute you on account of your belief and practice are certainly an enemy to you. Who could possibly disagree with that?
==========
When these verses are put into historical, logical, and linguistic context they make perfect sense and are quite reasonable, even by 21st century standards.
The equation of salvation as a function of faith in a dogmatic set of propositions is not Islamic, ie, is not as the Prophet practiced it. That equation is a largely traditional Christian way of looking at things, and it is unfortunate that the Quran is sometimes translated through this medieval (as opposed to primordial -- in the sense of the true spirit of Jesus) Christian prism.
> killing of non-Mulsims
False
> 4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who
> disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols (unbelief).
> So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.
The words translated as "believe" (iman) and "disbelieve" (kufr) don't refer to the state of being a Muslim or not. They refer to
1. "putting belief into practice" (iman) through good and righteous works; and
2. "covering the truth and fighting it" (kufr), ie, persecution on account of believing and practising Islam. In the second case there is not a hint of fighting, let alone, killing, someone because of their belief.
Also, the word is "fight", not "do battle". Fighting is not necessarily something physical.
> 2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for
> Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against > wrong-doers.
Again, the context is defense from persecution. The word mis-translated above as "wrong-doers" (zaalimiin) actually means "oppressors". That is, oppression must be fought and defended against, not someone else's belief.
> The second one sounds good - except that the Koran defines a wrong-doer
> very broadly. It is a class that includes freethinkers, polytheists,
> atheists and non-Muslims that preach their own religion.
Who on earth told you this?!? Islam, as exemplified by the Prophet, is more interested in actions than belief. There are many cases of people in the early generations of Islam who were openly atheist etc and left alone to themselves. Again, the context is persecution and oppression.
> 4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye > may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till
> they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back then take > them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper > from among them.
Again, very bad translation. Better:
4:89 They long that ye should cover the facts even as they cover the facts, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not comforters from them till they migrate in the way of Allah; if they betray you for another allegiance then take them and kill them according to the manner in which ye find them; choose no comforter nor helper from among them.
This refers to hypocrites who claim outward allegiance to your community but who would betray you to your enemies given half a chance. The test for this particular hypocrisy is that they "migrate" with you and share in your hardships and difficulties -- assuming they are really sincere. But if they betray you then the penalty for treason is death.
Death penalty for treason is a well-established norm in law throughout the ages. Nobody likes a traitor.
Note also the "according to the manner in which ye find them" as opposed to "wherever ye find them". The second is a very bad translation. The point is that if you find them red-handed in the act of treason then their punishment will be death. Otherwise they may be forgiven or given another punishment. Again, there are many cases of this in the Prophet's life, where he forgave or commuted.
> 4:101 And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail
> (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In
> truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
Those who oppress you, steal your property, and otherwise persecute you on account of your belief and practice are certainly an enemy to you. Who could possibly disagree with that?
==========
When these verses are put into historical, logical, and linguistic context they make perfect sense and are quite reasonable, even by 21st century standards.
The equation of salvation as a function of faith in a dogmatic set of propositions is not Islamic, ie, is not as the Prophet practiced it. That equation is a largely traditional Christian way of looking at things, and it is unfortunate that the Quran is sometimes translated through this medieval (as opposed to primordial -- in the sense of the true spirit of Jesus) Christian prism.
