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  • Not the point (Score:3, Insightful)

    by turg ( 19864 ) * <turg.winston@org> on Tuesday March 02, 2004 @03:07PM (#8443142) Journal
    I don't think the issue is the historical fact, but how that historical fact has been used.

    If someone was using the historical fact of the holocaust as justification for persecuting Christians, you'd have issues with that, wouldn't you? And if there was a (very) long history of severe abuse of Christians using this excuse, wouldn't you be a bit gunshy about it when people focus once again on how the Christians killed all those Jews.

    It also misses the point in another way: Jesus was killed by leaders whose authority was threatened by his message -- the fact that they happened to be Jews was incidental. Any other ethnic/religious group would have done the same thing (and the Bible teaches that all humans are responsible for his death). Nazi Germany needed a scapegoat for it's nationalistic fervour -- the results would have been the same regardless of whether or not the perpetrators were Christians.
    • If someone was using the historical fact of the holocaust as justification for persecuting Christians, you'd have issues with that, wouldn't you?

      I would. But I wouldn't try and deny that the Nazis were "Christians" as much as anyone else who isn't a priest.

      Were I jewish, I think that I'd be rather aggrivated that members of my religion killed a relatively peaceful jew who was trying to follow in a great tradition, and let a murderer go free.
  • Honestly, I don't see the big deal. After all, the Jews don't believe in Christ, right? (Although I could see complications of christians prejudicing the jews).
    • After all, the Jews don't believe in Christ, right?

      No, it isn't an existance disbeleif, rather a beleife that Christ just wasn't that important. Think of the Christian view to a religion that prays to one of the apostles all the time and celebrates their birthday. It isn't even that Christ isn't important, just not *that* special.
      • My original comment was just sorta a joke. But, honestly, if you believe in the Christian philosophy, the Jews didn't kill Christ. We all did. Everytime we sin, we are caning him, scouring him, or hammering on the nail...

        Its the reason that it was Mel Gibson whose hands put the first nail into the hand of Christ in the movie. He said "It was because I did it... we all did"
        • Jews didn't kill Christ. We all did. Everytime we sin, we are caning him, scouring him, or hammering on the nail...

          'scuse me while I go sin a little ;-)

          BODY MASSAGE
        • But, honestly, if you believe in the Christian philosophy, the Jews didn't kill Christ. We all did.

          This, FK, is why I don't go to church.

          JC was/is a perfect human being, whose soul was part of God rather than a seperate creation of the Almighty. He died, in large part, due to free choice, and in large part due to preordained destiny.

          However, you, I, and all the Jews alive today had no more to do with His death 1974-1980 years ago than we had to do with George Washington's death.

          But this is, really, a
          • but He likes us

            Ever see that George Carlin bit about, "God doesn't want you do this, or that or this, and he looks at you all the time and he sits there whit this list of things that are more important than others, and if you break them you go to a horrible hot bad nasty foul place where you will spend all of eternity living in torture.... but He loves you."
            • He he.

              Ha ha.

              (must stop before I delve into AIM-chat acronym hell.)

              Ok, that's better.

              FWIW, I wasn't referring to God the Father. I was referring to Jesus Christ, who's a distinct being from the Father, though of like nature and born directly from the same mind.

              But that's something else entirely.
        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Perhaps they can believe that their ancestors killed a person calling himself JC, but not that they killed a divine presence that the Christians think of. Of course, there is a small following of "Jews for Jesus" that might accept both, but as I'm neither Jewish nor Christian, I'm probably not the right person to ask.

    I thought I'd answer, anyway, if for no other reason than for your JE to not go un-commented. Although, it's a rather inflamatory question, and you'll probably have dozens of comments once the
  • Christians run the U.S. since the president is Christian.

    You have to be a Christian to live in Churchtown [mapquest.com] since all that is there are Churchs.

    In order to go to a synagogue you must be jewish since all the people I know who go to synagogues are jewish.

    All people who go door-to-door any more these days are Mormons since that's all the people ever talk about.

    NHL is a lesser sport than the NFL because it gets less national coverage on the major US TV networks.

    People who wear plain clothes are Amish.

    White
  • This is probably not related at all. How many atheists have you heard claim they have heard a Christian tell them they are going to hell? Why would this bother the athiest who does not believe in hell? Another amusing issue is where many atheists will exclaim, "Jeebus!" If they truly do not believe in Jesus, why do they choose to: a) pervert the name Jesus; b) even say his name as an exclaimation?

    Now, as has been mentioned above, we know that the Jews currently fear retribution for killing Christ, or m
    • Another amusing issue is where many atheists will exclaim, "Jeebus!" If they truly do not believe in Jesus, why do they choose to: a) pervert the name Jesus; b) even say his name as an exclaimation?

      I suspect they do it to piss people off...they're not too different from /. trolls and crapflooders, really. (Why else would someone have a "Jesus is Lard" bumper sticker than to willfully be offensive?)

      • I do it because it sounds funny. Though I'm not technically an atheist.
      • Nod, I understand. I find it amusing where only Christians must be tolerant, however anyone else can mock Christians. It would be interesting if they (generic they) would have the courage to claim exactly that, instead of pretend that they somehow have a higher moral ground.
    • As such, I do not think that any Christian I know holds the Jews accountable for killing Christ. Most knowledgable Christians realize that Christ was to be slain from the start, even Genesis points to Christ's sacrafice.

      Two part answer.

      1: I do _not_ hold present-day jews accountable in any way for anything their ancestors did two thousand, one thousand, five hundred, or a hundred years ago.

      2: You mean "any Christian who believes in predestination", don't you? IMO Jesus of Nazareth has free will, as did
      • 1. I agree. Just as I do not hold any man accountable for the crimes of their fathers.

        2. Yeah, I believe in predestination. Perhaps Isiah 52:13 - 53:12 will convince you. Take particular note of 53:7-8. The Isiah prophecy here is pretty obvious that He was to be killed. Jesus chose to be obedient to God's will, and it was God's will that he die for the sins. Without getting into the freewill aspect, I would say there is no other route for the forgiveness of sins other than the death of Christ. Blood
        • Hmm...

          This is where we get into the apparant paradox of free will and prophecy. For a long while I didn't quite get it either, but a friend of mine (a pagan, oddly enough) said something very succintly that I believe has the kernal of wisdom: "Just because [a seer] can see the choices that you will make doesn't mean that they're not your choices."

          I suspect, again, that the jews chose the path as much as God chose it. However, I think it may be appropriate to ammend my previous statement, from "jews aliv
    • How many atheists have you heard claim they have heard a Christian tell them they are going to hell? Why would this bother the athiest who does not believe in hell?

      I've been told by people that I'm going to hell. (I've been told TO go to hell, as well, but that's different ;) ) When it's someone who's making a general statement, or sometimes a joke, it's all good.

      Christian: "Are you planning on going to church this weekend?"

      Me: "Nah, I'm pretty much an agnostic."

      Christian: "Oh. You realise you're going

      • When it's said with a tone of derision, it crosses the line.

        "Christian: "What are you reading, there?"

        Me: "Oh, this is cool, it's a history of the pagan cultures of Northern Europe."

        Christian: "That's devil worship! You shouldn't read that stuff!"

        That's not derision. That's the kind of close-minded fearful thinking that leads to puritanism.

        An Atheist and a Christian should have almost the same opinion on the "pagan" religions of Europe: "they're wrong." :)
  • 1) The "fact" that "Jews killed Christ" has been used to justify an awful lot of killing and such since then. And that's without them "admitting it".

    2) Would you want to admit that you were responsible for starting the religion that replaced you? After all if JC lived to a ripe old age of 85 and died quietly at home then the whole "gave His only Son so that he could die for us..." stuff wouldn't ring so true eh?

    If everything was pre-ordained and was what the big guy wanted then we can't really go and

  • Technically... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Ethelred Unraed ( 32954 ) * on Tuesday March 02, 2004 @06:21PM (#8445544) Journal
    ...it wasn't the Jews who killed him, but the Romans (he was, after all, crucified in the Roman fashion by Roman soldiers), at least in part at the request of the Jewish authorities. To say that "the Jews" did it is wrong, because not all the Jews participated -- just their "leadership", and even the leadership was divided and uncertain about what they were doing.

    The additional point is that Jesus Himself was a Jew, and a Teacher/Rabbi at that (indeed the Apostles and followers repeatedly call Him "Teacher", or Rabbi), who engaged in debates about Jewish law with various Jewish experts of the time, like the Pharisees. In effect, Jesus wasn't trying to found "Christianity", but reform and renew Judaism and open it to all. So once again, to blame His sacrifice and death on the "Jews" is inaccurate.

    Finally, the Holocaust was not a "Christian" phenomenon per se, though historically European anti-Semitism definitely had a strong Christian element to it (the claim that Jews murdered Christ, even though Christ Himself made clear that God intended him to be sacrificed -- 'the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world'). The Nazis were actually atheist or pagan, depending on the strain of Nazi ideology you take. Many Christians did participate, but they committed a crime against God and humanity. My Christian faith does not make me guilty for the Holocaust any more than a Jew is guilty for Christ's death.

    Anyway. The argument that the Jews murdered Christ is an ancient -- and wrong -- one that is dangerous precisely because it has and does lead to virulent anti-Semitism (or in particular anti-Judaism). Look up King Edward I and the Jews to see one example where that very argument led to a mini-Holocaust in medieval England...

    Cheers,

    Ethelred

  • why can none of my Jewish friends accept that Jews killed Christ?

    If the Jews (especially those who practice Judaism) were to accept the NT as historical fact and the fullfilment of the promises of the OT than they would also have to accept that they are no longer the chosen people. The kingdom was taken away from them and given to all people.

  • But if you want to be purely realistic about it, it isn't the Jews who killed Christ. Well, scratch that, it is their fault to an extent, but less so than it is your fault. And mine. Let me explain, and you tell me if you think I'm right on this.

    Christ died to atone for our sins as Christians. His punishment is a direct result of our imperfection. Beyond the physical pain and torture, he was separated from God, which is a fate far, far worse than any form of brutal violence could ever be. Separation from
    • Did you go see The Passion recently?

      Nope. I probably will in the next week or so, though.

      I do not believe that there was any actually necessary reason for the Word (that part of God which became Jesus Christ) to come and die for our sins to be forgiven. God is perfectly capable of forgiving us independantly of our actions.

      Rather, I believe that God sent the Word to become part of Creation so that we would accept the Father's forgiveness, and so that we would have an example of all that we can be.

      (I a
  • Perhaps its because you don't identify much of your self image with the Nazi party, whereas your friends do identify their sense of self with their religion. Also consider that Hitler isn't considered (by anyone I know) a Christian leader. Again, the reference isn't "local". Quite the opposite, at least in the established historical context, with the crusifiction.
  • It was because of my sins that Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified, so you could argue that I killed Him.
    I'm glad He doesn't hold it against me though.

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