Comment few corrections (Score 1) 92
>Now that's an interesting exaggeration if I saw >one. The Spartans certainly made a great display >of courage at Thermopylæ, but even if we want to >take that reductive view of things (whereby the >Greeks are the ``good guys'' and the Persians are >the ``bad guys''), the Athenians should be the >real heroes. After all, they had beaten Darius at >Marathon ten years earlier, in 490 (first Median >war), and they destroyed Xerxes' fleet in >Salamis. Granted, Leonidas and his brave Spartans >probably bought the Athenians time, but Athens >nevertheless was sacked by Xerxes in 480 — >and despite this the Greeks were victorious.
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Many think that the Spartans actually won at Thermopylae, actually. They lost in terms of pure military numbers, but they *succeeded* in delivering the message that the Greeks were indominatable. Don't you think Xerxes was scared shitless by this brilliant show of military prowess on the behalf by a handful of Spartans? Don't you think this could have massively affected the actual endpoint of the entire war?
You failed to mention the battle of Plataea. The Spartans were the major players in that skirmish, and when they were able to flex their accumulated military muscle, they kicked the Persians' asses right out of Greece. I accredit the victory of the Persian War to the Spartans--the Athenians marked the turning point at Marathon--but the Spartans brought the ordeal to a decisive finish.
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>Besides, this reductive point of view leaves much >to be desired. Who are the great men (i.e. >scientists) of Greece? Thales, Anaximander, >Anaxagoras, Empedocles, Democritus and the like, >I would say: see any Athenians there? any >Spartans? Definitely not. Athens only produced >Plato and Aristotle, who merely served to justify >much of the philosophical mumbo-jumbo that was >qualified as ``science'' during the Middle Ages; >and Sparta produced nothing of note, and is now >an unremarkable village of the Peloponnesus (sic >transit). Thales lived in Miletus, which was >taken by the Persians at the end of the VIth >century (and no Athenians or Spartans rose to the >arms to defend their comrades against Media).
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The purpose of this piece of historical fiction was to portray the battle of Thermopylae and the mindset of the soldiers who fought in it, not somehow tie together all notable figures of Greek history and get them to work in a big wacky purely fictional plot. It's reduced for a reason: for example, when I write an autobiography, will I write about my escapades with every single major celebrity in America? No... they don't have anything to do with me. Same with Thermopylae and Plato.
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>I thank the League of Delos no more than I thank >Xerxes. As for the Spartans (or the Thebans, for >that matter), I hold some sympathy for them in >that they glorified homosexuality, but they were >assuredly not a very pleasant people.
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Nah, I don't think they glorified homosexuality at all. The Athenians certainly did--pederasty was an integral part of male society--but in comparison to the Spartans, the Spartans hardly even mentioned it. Homosexuality was tolerated, unremarkable even, in Spartan society between peers--but never was it encouraged or endorsed by the state (the sexual practices of homosexuality require one to be "passive", or feminine, which sacrifices the all-important characteristic of masculinity.) Boy-love was shunned, even punished, in Sparta if it was pursued to sexual ends.
Thebes, on the other hand... yeah, they glorified it all right.
I think the Spartans would have been a fine people--but in a different way. Our [American] society certainly isn't kind in comparison to the majority of other established societies (all this damn corporatism! advertisement! hiss)
Sometimes I wish I could have meet or perhaps even been a Spartan--what an interesting experience that might've been. mm, pass me more of that tasty black bloody porridge!
Kevin
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Many think that the Spartans actually won at Thermopylae, actually. They lost in terms of pure military numbers, but they *succeeded* in delivering the message that the Greeks were indominatable. Don't you think Xerxes was scared shitless by this brilliant show of military prowess on the behalf by a handful of Spartans? Don't you think this could have massively affected the actual endpoint of the entire war?
You failed to mention the battle of Plataea. The Spartans were the major players in that skirmish, and when they were able to flex their accumulated military muscle, they kicked the Persians' asses right out of Greece. I accredit the victory of the Persian War to the Spartans--the Athenians marked the turning point at Marathon--but the Spartans brought the ordeal to a decisive finish.
--
>Besides, this reductive point of view leaves much >to be desired. Who are the great men (i.e. >scientists) of Greece? Thales, Anaximander, >Anaxagoras, Empedocles, Democritus and the like, >I would say: see any Athenians there? any >Spartans? Definitely not. Athens only produced >Plato and Aristotle, who merely served to justify >much of the philosophical mumbo-jumbo that was >qualified as ``science'' during the Middle Ages; >and Sparta produced nothing of note, and is now >an unremarkable village of the Peloponnesus (sic >transit). Thales lived in Miletus, which was >taken by the Persians at the end of the VIth >century (and no Athenians or Spartans rose to the >arms to defend their comrades against Media).
--
The purpose of this piece of historical fiction was to portray the battle of Thermopylae and the mindset of the soldiers who fought in it, not somehow tie together all notable figures of Greek history and get them to work in a big wacky purely fictional plot. It's reduced for a reason: for example, when I write an autobiography, will I write about my escapades with every single major celebrity in America? No... they don't have anything to do with me. Same with Thermopylae and Plato.
--
>I thank the League of Delos no more than I thank >Xerxes. As for the Spartans (or the Thebans, for >that matter), I hold some sympathy for them in >that they glorified homosexuality, but they were >assuredly not a very pleasant people.
--
Nah, I don't think they glorified homosexuality at all. The Athenians certainly did--pederasty was an integral part of male society--but in comparison to the Spartans, the Spartans hardly even mentioned it. Homosexuality was tolerated, unremarkable even, in Spartan society between peers--but never was it encouraged or endorsed by the state (the sexual practices of homosexuality require one to be "passive", or feminine, which sacrifices the all-important characteristic of masculinity.) Boy-love was shunned, even punished, in Sparta if it was pursued to sexual ends.
Thebes, on the other hand... yeah, they glorified it all right.
I think the Spartans would have been a fine people--but in a different way. Our [American] society certainly isn't kind in comparison to the majority of other established societies (all this damn corporatism! advertisement! hiss)
Sometimes I wish I could have meet or perhaps even been a Spartan--what an interesting experience that might've been. mm, pass me more of that tasty black bloody porridge!
Kevin
