Re:The bible and ID have no more validity (Score 1)

what kind of church did you go to?!

The group is focused on a leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment. (So zealous that they will dedicate their entire lives to it)

it's called having dedication to do it. how is being a pastor or a religious leader bad? and again, where are you getting all of this?

The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. ("Witnessing")

the bible has a very clear statement. go unto the world, speak the teachings of God. very simple. this doesn't make anyone part of a cult. it is part of having faith in God. There are people who take it to extremes but certainly the majority of Christians will not take to being excessive.

The group is preoccupied with making money. (pretty common)

so are a lot of people, what's your point? what does money have anything to do with it? a church has to stay afloat. there are people depending on it. most pastors don't make very much money at all. you don't become a pastor to make money. you do it because you're dedicated to your faith.

Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. (very common- esp in catholic branch but even methodist)

can't speak for the catholics or methodists but I certainly know that I'm encouraged to express any opinions or ask any questions I choose to.

Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). (okay- this is not used- one for the christians as a non-cult)

the meditation referring to Christians is different from meditation you may be thinking of, in reference to buddhists or hindus. Christian 'meditation' is more like studying. Studying the bible, it's message and the implications and applications to life. it's not chanting. and speaking in tongues is only accepted in certain denominations. in many denominations, it is not practiced and to lump that in means you don't know much about the Christian faith.

The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth). (Pretty common- huge social pressure to marry in the church- bring children up in the church- etc)

Again, what church are you looking at?! I know Bob Jones University and Pensacola College have a lot of issues with those and the MAJORITY (i'd even dare about 95%) of Christians disagree with Bob Jones and controlling people. I have NEVER been told what to wear, who to date, what job to take or where to live. If you're going to say that leaders do that, you better be able to differentiate between which leaders do and which leaders don't. Not all of them do that, not very many of them do that.

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity). (The leader is dead but otherwise-- check)

On the contrary, one of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity is acknowleging one's own sin and one's own shortcomings. You're saying that Christians worship a leader who is 'dead'. Jesus is God, therefore he does not die. He came to earth as man, died for the sins of everyone, rose again, returned to heaven. Christians don't worship Jesus the MAN, they worship God. Jesus, the man, died. Jesus in his original form, God, can't die.

The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society. (ye gods is this one true- just listen to any talk radio)

excuse me but i believe it could be also said that other people have an 'us against them' mentality. this is not the fault of Christians. there has been persecution for centuries. While I won't call political debates persecution, it's clear that anyone who is vaguely religious is deemed an idiot and is assumed to be entirely incompetent of making any kind of decision and I think that is putting Christians on the defensive. Why is it that they have to be called idiots and blamed for problems?

The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations). (This one varies- they often are not accountable for a long time- but I'll grant this one)

So, uh, Chaplins in the military aren't really soldiers, right? I bet they'd disagree. War veterans who happen to become preachers later on aren't subject to anyone? They don't have to pay taxes to the government? I'd certainly say that they are held accountable for that.

The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities). (for example, running a political campaign to save a "christian" candidate money or even suggesting the congregation votes for a particular candidate - check)

The personal comments of religious leaders only serve to be that -- personal comments. People are free to vote for who they like or to communicate with whomever they like. If ten people all like the same candidate, is it a problem for them all to want to support this candidate? They all want to, is that a problem? Is it a problem if non-religious people raise money to support a candidate of their choice? So because I read a bible means that I can't POSSIBLY be able to raise money for a candidate of my choice because obviously my judgment is flawed. What if I was supporting the 'other side'? I bet people would love my money raising then!

The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them. (Check- esp w/regard to sex)

You're assuming that guilt should not be felt. People who abide by the bible or certain teachings will feel guilt over things that they consider are wrong. Just because you don't consider them to be wrong does not mean that they should not. And you also assume that leadership does that simply to control. The bible teaches that sex before marriage is wrong. Very simple, cut and dry. Therefore, it is important to the faith of any Christian to abide by that. Doing otherwise causes guilt. It does not mean a leader's preaching on sex is intended to control anyone.

Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group. (Check- you are not my son/daughter/father if you are gay or convert to say islam)

Actually, I'll name a famous preacher for you. David Nasser, raised Muslim. He's now a Christian. His father disowned him for converting to Christianity. Another example. Ergun Caner. Raised Muslim. Again, denounced by family. You start pointing at Christians as being intolerant of family and I'll give you some examples. In China, families break a part because people convert to Christianity. It's not the religion's fault, it's the fault of people who are intolerant. I'm not naive to think that it doesn't happen to Christians either. but we all have problems to deal with. Christians are no different. You stand there and tell me that Christians disown their families because they say they're gay or convert to a different religion and I can point you to a lot of people who teach love and respect. One of the fundamental teachings of Christianity is showing love to a person. Love the person, not the thing they do. I don't agree with homosexuality but it won't stop me from being respectful to gay people. I'm not like that, neither are most Christians out there.

Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group. (Check- 3 nights a week with pressure to spend more time)

I got to church once a week. I'm not pressured to go three times a week at all. In fact, I think that people will go if they want to. You're telling me that Christians will be pressured to go to church three times a week and I'll tell you that pressure is nothing exclusive to Christianity. Anyone can be pressured to do anything. It's a choice, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head, demanding they go to church. In fact, a lot of people in China are risking their lives to have church even once a week.

Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members (check- as above, don't be unequally yoked)

The unequally yoked refers to dating and marriage. It's about compatibility and for a Christian, faith and religion should be the number one factor in who you want to spend a lot of time with. I have friends of all stripes but I would not want to date someone who did not agree with me or have the same beliefs as I do because it is so important to me. It's not like liking the same movies or music. This is a fundamental part of being a Christian. your evidence: "As you will see in the Scripture verses listed below - the Bible tells us to choose our friends carefully, that he who walks with wise people will become wise himself but that he who keeps company with fools will he himself be destroyed" this is not to mean 'don't hang out with people who aren't believers' it's saying, 'be careful who you associated with. pick your friends wisely.' i think that's a lesson for EVERYONE, not just Christians. it doesn't say anything about discriminating against those who don't believe. It's saying, 'be careful of who you are with.' God wants Christians to stay healthy in their faith. in fact, in the very next paragraph it even states that we are to talk to these people, interact, communicate, be part of society. And where does it ever come to be that you are 'required' to live with other Christians? Where do you see this?

--- I won't say "ALL" christians- because those type of statements are never ... oh wait, almost never... true.

it isn't true. I don't know what your problem is but you make statements that assume that everyone of the Christian faith is blind. Why do you do that? Where are you even getting your examples because you name things that you apparently think are exclusive to Christianity. Peer pressure and discrimination is everywhere. Christianity is not a bad thing nor does it produce sheep who can't think rationally or think for themselves.

And then there are the even more irrational parts about how he can't be angry and how angry he is or how he won't tempt us and then he tempts us. It's like your sunday school- impossible illogical unprovable bible stories fed to kids who are not old enough not to believe they are literal truth.

You say that they're unprovable....so how can you prove they aren't literal? Did you back to biblical times to ask? My faith convinces me that they are. You have no such faith thus it's logical that you wouldn't acknowledge it is literal. but you can't prove either that it isn't. the point isn't proving it isn't literal -- the point is, you can't prove that it isn't just like i can't prove it was. i have faith, you don't. and you assume children grow up stupid and won't judge for themselves what they would like to believe. well, since you grew up with religion, perhaps you can tell me whether you think you're stupid or not. you obviously decided what you wanted to believe, why think that other kids can't?

Is there a god or gods? Who knows.

you don't know therefore you can't possibly tell me what i believe is or is not because you personally, do not acknowledge it's existance. you don't know that there isn't one but you're not acknowledging that there is so telling ME what my religion is, not for you to do.

All I can assume by your list of friends ,etc is that you are probably like my bi christian friend whose church says being gay is fine- he's really not a christian- he's just making up his own religion and calling it christianity. If your church allows sexually active gay and bi members then it will probably be expelled like those listed above.

did i say that my church allows sexually active gay and bi members? No, I did not. In fact what I did say was that I have friends of different backgrounds and whether they go to my church or not is their own choice. I will not force religion on anyone, I will not make them believe as I do. I will answer whatever questions they have and treat them with respect.

just because one church makes decisions like kicking out members over political views does not mean ALL churches does the same.

as for the expelling of four churches pro-homosexuality, the bible clearly states God's view of homosexuality. To violate that means to go against teaching that is supposed to be one of the most important parts of Christianity. Not following Christianity would mean that they are perhaps no longer adopting the Christian religion as their own.

As for scientology-kills.org, the list is compiled by a man writing for Cultic Studies Journal. He does not represent the tone or voice of scientology-kills and just because they list him as a source does not mean that he has intended for it to be on that web site.

In fact, I went to the CSJ web site and looked around.

"Rutgers University professor Benjamin Zablocki (1997) says that sociologists often distinguish "cult" from "church," "sect," and "denomination." Cults are innovative, fervent groups. If they become accepted into the mainstream, cults, in his view, lose their fervor and become more organized and integrated into the community; they become churches."

Cult and church are different things. It's pretty obvious that Christianity has not remained a small group on the outskirts.

therefore, since it has moved out of the fringes, it is not a cult.

CSJ: " church may harm some believers because its pastor is domineering and abusive. A psychotherapist may harm some patients because she or he doesn't adequately understand how memory works and may, with the best of intentions, induce false memories in clients. These are all examples of individual harm related to interpersonal influence. They are all examples of situations that might understandably arouse the concern of the harmed person's family and of ICSA. But these situations are not necessarily "cult" situations, even though they may have a family resemblance to the concept "cult."

your assumption of Christianity as a cult and its members as being a certain way are untrue as dominance, abuse, etc. can happen to anyone and can be perpetrated by anyone.