Comment Oh, what fun (Score 1) 286
I love this post. I honestly do. This is the poster child of the new Slashdot, where assertions replace fact, and are moded up for it. Once upon a time, ideas were exchanged here, and the flames and crap were weeded. Now it seems that crap just fertilizes more of the same.
Case in point:
"For example at the moment there is a sizable faction of the Republican party that spends its time talking about the need to start a trade war with China."
Really? Truly? Wow, I guess must be reading all the wrong newspapers etc. I have yet to encounter this idea from the current elected Republicans in congress. And it is from a SIZABLE fraction no less. How could I have missed this? It may be because I don't get most of information from Blogs, but instead rely on accountable press. Who knows?.
All I can say is in an older, more civilized Slashdot, you had to back up such spurious claims with many links to be moded up. Now, if you call Bush or America or Republicans bad, you get a seemingly automatic +2. In any case, I would love to see your source for this information. Please.
"According to the CIA world fact book China's economy is worth 7.2 trillion and is growing at 9.1%, the Us economy is worth 11.8 trillion and is growing at 4.4%. At that rate China overtakes the US in 10 years time."
As some may have learned in the dot com boom, looking at past events and drawing exponential trends tends to leave some heartache. The sky does have limit kids. If you go on to read the CIA fact book, and not just post the tidbits that make you sound smart, it says:
" China in 2004 stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US, although in per capita terms the country is still poor. .....
The leadership, however, often has experienced - as a result of its hybrid system - the worst results of socialism (bureaucracy and lassitude) and of capitalism (growing income disparities and rising unemployment). ....>
From 100 to 150 million surplus rural workers are adrift between the villages and the cities, many subsisting through part-time, low-paying jobs....
Another long-term threat to growth is the deterioration in the environment - notably air pollution, soil erosion, and the steady fall of the water table especially in the north....
In short, the Chinese economy has improved over the low starting place that the great communist experiment had inflicted on its poor people. However, equalization will set in and it will face the limits/problems that the US and Europe face. Oh, and in the name of intellectual honesty, since I posted excerpts from the fact, here is the link so you can read the parts I left out, mostly to shorten the post some. They further highlight the limits.
Oh, and this is very good ad hoc attack:
"The US is currently facing the same problem that hit the British Empire. In the 1920s a bunch of politicians got into power who were really into the whole imperialism thing.."
Again, really? I watched, read, and discussed a great deal during the last election. I somehow missed the great debate on how the US should make and empire. In fact, no one even mentioned and may I suggest, even thought about becoming an Empire. Last I heard, the US still has a president who will leave office in 2008, and will not rule for life. The last I checked, the other territories that make up the fictional US empire seem to still have sovereignty, and are free to disagree with the so-called imperial US decrees. In fact, they often do, and make policies that run contrary to US wishes. For example, French seem to have this quaint notion they can do what they want, even against US interests. Not a very Roman like atmosphere, is it?
I do not wish to misinterpret the original posters intent. My understanding is that it was a justification of why China is investing so heavily into space and why it is ok if they include militarization as a goal. Granted, this is not stated explicitly, but may be inferred from statements such as "China does not want to be seen as a technically and military inferior country that can be pushed around by the worlds last superpower." If this is the case, then let me take a moment why any rational, thinking person should be slightly alarmed by the ascension of China. Let me remind you of a few things:
China is a repressive dictatorship. Although the country has the name People's Republic in it, that is not the reality. It is not a republic by any stretch of the imagination. There is little representation and dissent of ideas is not allowed. As of today, you can still be imprisoned for ideas, such as Falun Gong. It was not long ago where tanks were used to quell a student protest (Tiananmen Square).
In contrast, the US is still the world's oldest democracy. Officials are elected and one can give their opinion. For example, Bush bashing seems to be in Vogue yet no one is thrown into prison. If you do not agree with that, I leave the open challenge. Go the Washington DC, and loudly yell "Bush is an idiot. I hate all his policies. We should remove him from office." Have fun. Do it for a half hour. Come back and post. I bet you still can. On the other side of the coin, go to China, or better yet, get a Chinese citizen to go and do a similar thing. But, make sure it is not someone you like, because that guy is not coming back to post. But hey, what do you expect from a country that has an active program to limit what you see on the internet?
In recent history, China has been a belligerent nation. I have many Chinese friends and this idea surprises them. From the typical Chinese citizen's world view, China is a peaceful nation of the sort that would build a really big wall so it can just be left alone. It has no interest in the territory of others. Personally, I believe this feeling to be true and genuine. However, as mentioned above, China is not exactly rules by its people and their intentions do not always translate. Many Chinese are honestly surprised to learn:
(1) China has fought wars with many nations in the last 50 years. None of these nations have invaded Chinese territory, which many Chinese feel is the only time China should ever fight. For example neither the United States, the Soviet Union, or Vietnamese have invaded China, but blood was spilt fighting all those countries.
(2) The stated public policy of PROC is to reintegrate Taiwan back into the fold, even if the Taiwanese don't want to come. A great deal of the motivation of the recent Chinese military build up is to threaten or conquer the wayward province. Currently, this is prevented by the shear domination of the US military. Once parity is achieved, the single minded US view that people can decide their own destiny can be overcome and the rebel Taiwanese can be rightly subjugated. If necessary, I can provide numerous links discussing this, but I believe it is common knowledge, although said more brusquely.
(3) In recent history, China has advocated nuclear war. One of the reasons for the Sino/Soviet split was a powerful disagreement over the use of nuclear weapons. Chairman Mao believed that the Soviets should use the nuclear option at that moment since the communist countries had power parity and population advantage. The losses would be horrendous, but ultimately the communists would win since they have more people to lose. This made the soviets nervous, to say the least, and they stopped all aid toward nuclear armament. The memory of this still worries many people and leads them to question the motives of China as it rises to dominance.
Why do I bring it up? Am I just anti-Chinese? Yes and no. I love the Chinese people. I have several Chinese friends and married one. I respect the awesome history of the country and honor its core values. However, I am very anti-Chinese government. I believe it has and continues to perpetrate many sins against its people and the world. I see no upside to the rise of another dictoral power in the world. History still teaches that no two democracies have gone to war. However, dictatorships almost always do. When discussing China, one really should question the motivations and consider the long term implications. As my favorite As Hoc poster noted, the age of US dominance and Pax Americana may be coming to a close. I look at the likely successor and I do not see anything to be joyful. Feel free to discuss, while you still can....
Case in point:
"For example at the moment there is a sizable faction of the Republican party that spends its time talking about the need to start a trade war with China."
Really? Truly? Wow, I guess must be reading all the wrong newspapers etc. I have yet to encounter this idea from the current elected Republicans in congress. And it is from a SIZABLE fraction no less. How could I have missed this? It may be because I don't get most of information from Blogs, but instead rely on accountable press. Who knows?.
All I can say is in an older, more civilized Slashdot, you had to back up such spurious claims with many links to be moded up. Now, if you call Bush or America or Republicans bad, you get a seemingly automatic +2. In any case, I would love to see your source for this information. Please.
"According to the CIA world fact book China's economy is worth 7.2 trillion and is growing at 9.1%, the Us economy is worth 11.8 trillion and is growing at 4.4%. At that rate China overtakes the US in 10 years time."
As some may have learned in the dot com boom, looking at past events and drawing exponential trends tends to leave some heartache. The sky does have limit kids. If you go on to read the CIA fact book, and not just post the tidbits that make you sound smart, it says:
" China in 2004 stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US, although in per capita terms the country is still poor.
The leadership, however, often has experienced - as a result of its hybrid system - the worst results of socialism (bureaucracy and lassitude) and of capitalism (growing income disparities and rising unemployment).
From 100 to 150 million surplus rural workers are adrift between the villages and the cities, many subsisting through part-time, low-paying jobs....
Another long-term threat to growth is the deterioration in the environment - notably air pollution, soil erosion, and the steady fall of the water table especially in the north....
In short, the Chinese economy has improved over the low starting place that the great communist experiment had inflicted on its poor people. However, equalization will set in and it will face the limits/problems that the US and Europe face. Oh, and in the name of intellectual honesty, since I posted excerpts from the fact, here is the link so you can read the parts I left out, mostly to shorten the post some. They further highlight the limits.
Oh, and this is very good ad hoc attack:
"The US is currently facing the same problem that hit the British Empire. In the 1920s a bunch of politicians got into power who were really into the whole imperialism thing.."
Again, really? I watched, read, and discussed a great deal during the last election. I somehow missed the great debate on how the US should make and empire. In fact, no one even mentioned and may I suggest, even thought about becoming an Empire. Last I heard, the US still has a president who will leave office in 2008, and will not rule for life. The last I checked, the other territories that make up the fictional US empire seem to still have sovereignty, and are free to disagree with the so-called imperial US decrees. In fact, they often do, and make policies that run contrary to US wishes. For example, French seem to have this quaint notion they can do what they want, even against US interests. Not a very Roman like atmosphere, is it?
I do not wish to misinterpret the original posters intent. My understanding is that it was a justification of why China is investing so heavily into space and why it is ok if they include militarization as a goal. Granted, this is not stated explicitly, but may be inferred from statements such as "China does not want to be seen as a technically and military inferior country that can be pushed around by the worlds last superpower." If this is the case, then let me take a moment why any rational, thinking person should be slightly alarmed by the ascension of China. Let me remind you of a few things:
China is a repressive dictatorship. Although the country has the name People's Republic in it, that is not the reality. It is not a republic by any stretch of the imagination. There is little representation and dissent of ideas is not allowed. As of today, you can still be imprisoned for ideas, such as Falun Gong. It was not long ago where tanks were used to quell a student protest (Tiananmen Square).
In contrast, the US is still the world's oldest democracy. Officials are elected and one can give their opinion. For example, Bush bashing seems to be in Vogue yet no one is thrown into prison. If you do not agree with that, I leave the open challenge. Go the Washington DC, and loudly yell "Bush is an idiot. I hate all his policies. We should remove him from office." Have fun. Do it for a half hour. Come back and post. I bet you still can. On the other side of the coin, go to China, or better yet, get a Chinese citizen to go and do a similar thing. But, make sure it is not someone you like, because that guy is not coming back to post. But hey, what do you expect from a country that has an active program to limit what you see on the internet?
In recent history, China has been a belligerent nation. I have many Chinese friends and this idea surprises them. From the typical Chinese citizen's world view, China is a peaceful nation of the sort that would build a really big wall so it can just be left alone. It has no interest in the territory of others. Personally, I believe this feeling to be true and genuine. However, as mentioned above, China is not exactly rules by its people and their intentions do not always translate. Many Chinese are honestly surprised to learn:
(1) China has fought wars with many nations in the last 50 years. None of these nations have invaded Chinese territory, which many Chinese feel is the only time China should ever fight. For example neither the United States, the Soviet Union, or Vietnamese have invaded China, but blood was spilt fighting all those countries.
(2) The stated public policy of PROC is to reintegrate Taiwan back into the fold, even if the Taiwanese don't want to come. A great deal of the motivation of the recent Chinese military build up is to threaten or conquer the wayward province. Currently, this is prevented by the shear domination of the US military. Once parity is achieved, the single minded US view that people can decide their own destiny can be overcome and the rebel Taiwanese can be rightly subjugated. If necessary, I can provide numerous links discussing this, but I believe it is common knowledge, although said more brusquely.
(3) In recent history, China has advocated nuclear war. One of the reasons for the Sino/Soviet split was a powerful disagreement over the use of nuclear weapons. Chairman Mao believed that the Soviets should use the nuclear option at that moment since the communist countries had power parity and population advantage. The losses would be horrendous, but ultimately the communists would win since they have more people to lose. This made the soviets nervous, to say the least, and they stopped all aid toward nuclear armament. The memory of this still worries many people and leads them to question the motives of China as it rises to dominance.
Why do I bring it up? Am I just anti-Chinese? Yes and no. I love the Chinese people. I have several Chinese friends and married one. I respect the awesome history of the country and honor its core values. However, I am very anti-Chinese government. I believe it has and continues to perpetrate many sins against its people and the world. I see no upside to the rise of another dictoral power in the world. History still teaches that no two democracies have gone to war. However, dictatorships almost always do. When discussing China, one really should question the motivations and consider the long term implications. As my favorite As Hoc poster noted, the age of US dominance and Pax Americana may be coming to a close. I look at the likely successor and I do not see anything to be joyful. Feel free to discuss, while you still can....
