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Journal Em Emalb's Journal: My problem with religions. 34

Journal by Em Emalb

First off, let's get my belief system out of the way.

I believe in God. I have a person relationship with God.

On to the subject:

If you are a member of a church, and your belief system is such that the only way to get absolved of your sins and reach heaven is through the worship of that particular church, then I have a question for you.

There are approximately 3 Billion people in this world that do not proscribe to the same beliefs you do. What kind of God would allow 3 Billion people to rot forever in hell because they don't follow your church and your religion?

If, for example, a young boy is born out in the middle of the African desert, and is raised to believe in the Goddess Shackalakalaka, will he too go to hell? He doesn't know any better. He was never "taught" that everything he believes and was raised is wrong. How could this occur?

What is wrong with this scenario?

I would do more, but at this point I just don't care enough to do so.

Look, believe what you want. Just don't try to stuff your beliefs down my throat. I am all up for resasonable debate. But if you won't listen to what I have to say, well, then it's fair that I don't listen to what you say.

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My problem with religions. More

My problem with religions.

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  • i was given a resounding "yes, they go to hell, rules are rules". Their logic (ha!) was apparently that God does, in fact, visit everyone and offer a chance of salvation.

    He was a Mormon, and offered as an example how Jesus appeared to some native Americans.
    • I must say that the person that answered the question with "a resounding yes" was not up on his theology.

      The Mormons are firm believers that there is a life after death. They believe that the same attitudes that you have here will go with you.

      So, the African boy who worships the Goddess Shackalakalaka dies. There, he is still the same person. If his worship of Goddess Shackalakalaka was faithful (based on his understanding) then he lived a good life. However, without Jesus and accepting him and his gospel the poor African boy is out of luck.

      Anyways - if the boy was of the attitude "religion is for schmoes" then he will not be inclined to accept Jesus after his death.

  • I'm guessing that you mean Egypt, and as we all know from reading the bible, God has been quite angry with the people of Egypt for quite some time, so yes, egptions go to hell.
  • (Well, this isn't technically my answer; it's the answer I was taught when I was young and still active in the church of my choice.)

    The way it goes is this: God revealed himself to his chosen people. Why were they his chosen people? Because he chose to reveal himself to them. Why? None of your business. Move along.

    Years later, God sent his son, Jesus, to offer salvation. See, people as a group are a motley lot, and not really very good at upholding those commandments. So God offered a plan B: don't worry so much about the commandments-- I mean, keep them, but if you screw up, I'll forgive you. All you have to do is believe in my metaphorical son, Jesus. I'm offering him up as a sacrifice to myself (just go with me here, okay?) in the style of Abraham and Isaac, and washed in his metaphorical blood, you will all be made clean.

    But he didn't tell the whole world this. He didn't actually tell anybody. Jesus told a few people, and then told them to spread the word. See, mass communications wasn't as much an option in the first century AD as it is today; it was all pretty much word of mouth back then. So Jesus said, "On this rock I will build my church," which was evidently a pun because the apostle Peter's name in Aramaic meant "rock," which is kind of a funny name for a young boy until you realize that Peter's name was originally Simon. Jesus nicknamed him "rock," or "Kipha" in Aramaic, which became "Kephas" or "Cephas" in Greek, and "Petros" in Latin, which is where we get both the name "Peter" and the prefix "petro," as in "petrorology" and "petrochemical." But that's not really the point, although it is interesting. The point is that Jesus's big idea was that Peter-- i.e., Rocky-- and his pals should go spread the word.

    Then Jesus went off and got himself nailed to a tree, thereby fulfilling God's plan for the Last Sacrifice and washing away all the sins of man with his spilt metaphorical blood.

    But remember: no mass communication. Everybody's eligible for salvation if they only believe, but in order to believe they first have to be informed. And who's job was it to inform everybody? That's right, Rocky's. Er, I mean Peter's. Peter and his friends.

    See, God has no intention of letting 3 billion non-Christians burn in Hell. He gave the job of saving them to Rocky-- sorry, Peter-- and his friends. If Christianity doesn't spread to the corners of the Earth and everybody isn't saved from damnation, it's not God's fault. It's Peter's. And his descendants. Who, of course, are the popes. And his descendants' friends, who, of course, are all the members of the Christian churches all over the world.

    That's how it was explained to me, anyway. If you're worried about the possibility of a six-year-old kid from Upper Volta going to Hell because nobody ever gave him a Bible, get off your ass and FedEx a Bible to Upper Volta. God ain't gonna do it for you.
    • Well, this isn't technically my answer; it's the answer I was taught when I was young and still active in the church of my choice.

      So, what do you believe now? If you don't want to say, that's fine, but just curious.

      Wow, I guess ole Em is up to reasonable debate, imagine that.
      • So, what do you believe now?

        Oh, I guess you could say that it's complicated. I don't think about religion or matters of the spirit very much. Do I believe? I have no idea. I have my reasons for saying yes, but the rational part of me says no. So I'm... undecided, I guess you could say.

        Now religion... I'm a big supporter of religion. I believe that religion is a powerful force for hope and comfort to those who believe in it. Sure, like any powerful force religion can be perverted into a force for evil, but there's not much we can do about that. I think a world without religion in it would be worse than the world we have now.
  • I've always had issued with hypocrisy, and the churches that I've gone to have always been full of them. People purporting to follow "God's Laws", putting on a good face for Sunday, but Monday through Saturday breaking many of the commandments, and sometimes the church rules set forth in the church's doctrine.

    I grew up in the South, where things are... DIFFERENT. In smaller towns, you're judged by the church you go to. In larger towns, the bias is a little more subtle. I've seen women (and girls, when I was growing up) who weren't allowed to wear pants, had to wear head coverings, etc. The Baptist convention a few years ago had a debate on the subserviance of women to their husbands and to God. Bleh.

    Leave me out of organized religion, thanks. But I'm not anti-Christian; I'm not an atheist, just an agnostic.

    I stumbled across a website called "Positive Atheism" a while ago -- and was disgusted. Everyone who mailed in their 'deprogramming' story were almost violently anti-Christian. It's not a theory I subscribe to. No one knows for sure that their religion is the 'right' one; that's why there's "faith".

    For the record, I'm not anti-anything (except hippies) (and stupid people).
    • No one knows for sure that their religion is the 'right' one; that's why there's "faith".

      There are some that are sure, but the basis for every belief is disputable. Thus they have faith AND are sure [biola.edu], but their attempts to prove the soundness of their arguments for that faith always fall short of total proof. For example, you would want to be sure before you got strapped to a telephone pole, smeared with pitch and burned to death [biola.edu] for your faith.
    • Well, there isn't that kind of hypocracy at my lutheran church. :) frequently the sermons are about how greatful the ministers are about how god loves even a lowly sinner such as them.. That's right, they don't pretend to be above sin. I understand your concerns, but there christian churches that aren't riddled with hipocracy. Remember, too, Luther was the guy posting lists of the crimes the church was commiting on the doors of them. So lutheran churches as a general rule ought to be against a strict doctrine of the church trying to run the lives of it's members.
      Note, I said Ought to, Your mileage may vary.
      not that it really matters, and I only go to church 3-4 times a year anyways.
      But I bet if you looked around you could find a church that met your needs, and didn't ask you to do anything much in return.
      Ah well, just remember next time someone in your family etc tries to pressure you into joining a church, you can always find one that's willing to meet your needs without making you bend over backwards and do the limbo.
      • the sermons are about how greatful the ministers are about how god loves even a lowly sinner such as them.

        See that's one of the things that pisses me off about (organized) Christianity. The notion that I was born "evil" and have to confess my sins and accept redemption. Huh? What's that all about? I haven't done anything wrong that I need to apologise for, let alone beg for salvation. Where's this sin that I'm supposed to have committed? I go to a lot of rock concerts, and there's a guy with a megaphone that turns up to a lot of them. He walks up and down the queue, preaching Christianity ("be a winner, don't be a sinner"). Because obviously anyone that likes heavy metal must be a baby sacrificing devil worshipper. Or something. But that's a debate for another time. Anyway, one day when he was trying to get me to repent my sins, and I asked him what sins he thought I'd committed. "Ahhh, everybody's a sinner," he replied. "No, I want specifics. What specifically have I done to warrant your (or God's) wrath?". He just kept repeating the same old dogma, but was unable to justify, or even just explain his position. Now I'm quite happy for anyone to have their own beliefs. But I really have a problem with those who believe that I've done something wrong according their religion yet can't even explain what it is I'm supposed to have done...

        • Well I know I'm not as pure as the wind driven snow, that's for sure.
          I'll try to clear this up for you if you'd like.
          Sin is not a synonym for evil. It is a synonym for inequity, or debt.
          As long as you fall short of being a perfect being, then you have within you sin.
          Now, that doesn't mean you deserve any wrath from anyone! And the last person to give you any wrath would be God, because he made a covenent.
          Sadly there are many misinformed people who think Sin equals evil, but it doesn't. Evil acts are indeed full of sin, but that like saying that a shadow contains darkness.
          I think this should cover your main questions, the rest seem to be based on the asumption that you have to do 'evil' to sin. Which isn't the case, you only need to do wrong.
          • I think this should cover your main questions, the rest seem to be based on the asumption that you have to do 'evil' to sin. Which isn't the case, you only need to do wrong.

            No,if anything's it's just strengthened my desire to know what I've done "wrong". Particularly at birth. As I'm passing through the birth canal, I'm supposed to have already got it wrong? How so?

            • Original sin is your question then. Okay, well that has to do with the fact that adam was supposed to be perfect, right, an exact image of god, but he broke God's laws, by taking the forbidden fruit, which actually broke two laws. Disbelief, as well as disobeying an order from God. Thus mankind was cast out of paradise, and all the decendants of adam and eve carried with them the fact that they were born of sinners. Because adam and eve were cast out of the presence of God, so too were thier children.
              Basically it's prejudice agains the children of sinners. Because your ma and pa sinned in life, then you too must carry the shame of thier disgrace.
              And for what it's worth there are religions that don't believe in original sin either. Although lutheran's (which are a calvanist based religion) do have original sin in thier teachings.
              To sum it up, the corruption of the soul occurs because your parents were themselves corrupt.
              Original sin is disputable, of course, but the main reason why it's so popular as a concept is because the world we live in is so full of 'wrong.' People want to know why there aren't perfect children who can do no wrong, and so original sin explains it to them.
    • I'm not an atheist, just an agnostic.

      Jens Johansson [panix.com] summed my position up perfectly when he said he's atheist and agnostic on alternate days of the week :-) My problem with religions is that they seem to exist solely to attempt to answer the question "why are we here?". But not one of them succeeds. We're here because God/Odin/Illuvatar/The Greater Chthulu created us? Then who/what created God? Why is there a God that exists to create us? Religion merely moves the question up a level. The existence of God serves no purpose, and answers no questions. Therefore, Occam's Razor implies that in all likelihood, God doesn't exist. Hence the atheist in me. That said, why are we here? Why is there a Universe in which we exist? How did it get there? The answer to that question is unknowable, hence the agnostic.

      Just as an aside... Assume that God exists. He is omniscient, so he knows how I feel about him, and the reasons for my lack of belief in his existence. He also knows that because of the way my brain's wired, I'm not going to change my mind without some pretty major persuasion. He knows that no amount of street corner preaching, or indeed reasoned argument by any human, is going to convince me. Pretty much the only thing that is going to do that is for the heavens to open, and for him to reach down and point at me and say "Oi, Tet. I exist!". And even then, I'd be looking for more rational explanations. So he knows that I don't believe in him. He also knows that I'm not going to start believing just because someone tells me to. So do I go to heaven or hell? It's not like I've chosen to not believe in him. I don't believe because of the way my brain works, a brain that he created. So was I condemned at birth? Or do I get to sneak in via the backdoor even without the belief, given that my lack of belief is entirely God's doing?

  • Many a times I have came across the prejudice and bigotry that followers of religions tend to exhibit towards "others."

    Most religious people believe that there is only one true religion (their own) and all else are false, hence all others are doomed to burn in hell forever. And as you correctly point out, then people who have never heard of a particular religion are doomed because that religion's followers did not get to tell him/her all the things that were wrong with their current beliefs.

    The usual copout of "Yes, they will burn in hell." does not stand up to any logical reasoning. Why would God, who created a universe in which we have free will to choose what to believe in, sentence people for not hearing about a particular religion. (The principle of free will is proven by the fact that when Moses, or Jesus, or any other appeared some choose to believe in them and others didn't. If there was no free will, we will have believed in them the moment they appeared.)

    But there is another way to look at religion:

    There is only one religion - the religion of God - and all the founders of the great religions known to humanity are different chapters in a continous stream of Divine guidance.
    Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc. offer humanity the latest guidance based upon the stage of development of the generality of the people at the time they appeared. When humanity develops and attains a new level of growth, a new religion appears and so on. This way God ensures that we will continue to develop as a species.

    If I were in your situation I would think very carefully whether that person will marry my daughter. She and you will have to live with him for an unspecified period of time.

    Cheers
  • I hate the word "evangelism" just like anybody else, but I'm going to have to use it here, so just forgive me.

    The Bible is actually not terribly clear about what happens to the unevangelized. One of the guys at my church did his thesis at seminary on this very point, and his conclusion was that you could make a case either way, we just don't know, but that it doesn't matter anyway, because we're supposed to tell everyone we can the Good News about the Kingdom anyway, but we needn't worry that we've (accidentally) damned the one guy we missed in the corner.

    And that is the truth of it. Every good theologian of practically every denomination (these are the profs at seminary, not your average believer, keep in mind) will tell you that we don't know. And since we don't know, there's not much point worrying about it. We merely have the burden of following the Great Commission and doing what God wants, which isn't condemning some poor guy we never met in Africa who never heard about Christianity. If someone comes up and asks me about this or some other question such as "what is your church's position on "once saved always saved" (stupid stupid stupid church-insider talk, anyway, but that's a different rant...)" I'm going to tell him that he missed the point and that Jesus did say some stuff about things like that, but he said a lot more about what we're supposed to be doing with our lives, like healing the sick, feeding the poor, and freeing the oppressed, so we should worry about the stuff we can actually do something about first, and even better, actually do something.

    But I did hear of this one really funny thing on the quad one day when I was in college... this one guy was out preaching on the quad and another guy came up to him and started mocking him about the possibility that the unevangelized would go to hell and then the preacher finally broke and said "Well, I don't know about that, but it sucks to be you, because I just told you..."
    • I hope you don't think I am mocking the bible or your ideals, I just really don't know.

      I don't think it's fair to these people who will NEVER get the chance to be introduced to Christianity will burn in hell because they aren't saved.

      I don't understand how God could be that mean and heartless. The God I know has compassion towards all, and gives his forgiveness to all, no matter how bad the sin or fault is.

      Why is it that followers of religions believe their way is the only way?

      I only don't understand this. Why are Muslims wrong? Why are Christians wrong? Why are followers of Islam wrong?

      Who is to say they all are not right? I mean, the basic premises of each religion are similar right? Treat others as you would wish to be treated.
      • Well, as I think I stated fairly clearly, the Bible is ambiguous about what happens to people who never get introduced to Christianity, and that most Biblical scholars will tell you just that. You could make a case either way, so we should just give God the kind benefit of the doubt and not worry about it.

        Well... the religions dictate that. Like I said, if I thought that another way could be it too, I'd pick an easier religion to follow, because Christianity can be TOUGH at times.

        And as for why we believe that we're right and everyone else is wrong, well, Jesus said it. He said that no one comes to the Father but through Him. We believe in Jesus. We also know that there is one example in the Bible of where someone had great faith but wasn't praying to God, were praying to an idol or something (I really should look this up, but I'm about to leave...), and God admired their faith and their prayer was answered. There are also examples of where people who believed in other religions recognized our God as great, and came to offer sacrifices to Him, and God didn't smite them and say "You heathen, you have no right to offer sacrifices to me...."

        I think that you should study up on Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) and you might be better able to answer this question than what I am saying, because you likely won't be able understand from the simple text I put forth here. I really have a great problem with people rejecting Christianity as bunk if they don't know much about it (and you apparently don't know much about it given the statements you have made here and the statements I have had to make to try to clarify your misunderstandings). But don't take it from me... think about it... you had this great big misconception that said that Christian denominations believe the unevangelized are going to hell... well, some do, but others say we don't know. Oh well.
        • I think that you should study up on Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) and you might be better able to answer this question than what I am saying, because you likely won't be able understand from the simple text I put forth here.

          Yeah, guess I am being stupid since I obviously don't get it. For the record, I was raised baptist for 8 years, then Catholic for another 10. That's 18 years of church every sunday, with sunday school and all that thrown in. I believe I have a good grasp of Christianity.

          I am not saying that Christianity is bunk. Never anywhere did I say that. I said, and I quote:"If you are a member of a church, and your belief system is such that the only way to get absolved of your sins and reach heaven is through the worship of that particular church then I have a question for you.

          I never said Christianity is wrong. I just said, why does this particular sect of Christianity think their way is the one and only. Catholics don't think Baptists are going to hell. However, the people who are forcing (yes, forcing) their beliefs on me believe that if I am a member of another branch of Christianity I am going to go to hell.

          I respect your thoughts Liora, and will gladly persue this further with you, but frankly I feel like you are talking down to me. Hopefully you didn't intend for it to sound that way.
          • I totally didn't mean to sound that way...

            I didn't actually say anything about that other branch of Christianity stuff, nor do I want to, b/c I don't know about what every church thinks on that, and I'm not likely to be helpful on that subject... I was merely talking about people who have never heard of Christianity, and how that most churches at the seminary level (not the average lay-leader) don't believe the way you were stating.

            One point I WAS trying to make though, is that often people attend a church for all their lives, and don't ever actually know exactly what they believe on a lot of subjects. For instance, I attended a Lutheran church when I was younger. The average person in that congregation would have told me that Lutherans believe in salvation through baptism, which is why they baptize babies. But, I had a real problem with that theologically (the notion of babies going to hell without baptism, etc, that something your parents did for you when you were little would keep you saved forever, no matter how you turned out, etc.), so I talked to the pastor, and he said actually that wasn't the church's official stance on the subject. It was more of a child dedication thing.

            I do think that Christianity is the one and only way, but I don't think that I have the right to say you over there, you're not what I am, you're a Methodist, so you're going to hell, nor do I really think I have that right for anybody, Christian or no.
            • but I don't think that I have the right to say you over there, you're not what I am, you're a Methodist, so you're going to hell, nor do I really think I have that right for anybody, Christian or no.

              Amen.

              And no, I don't think you were doing that, I think we were just talking about different sides of the same coin.

              Religion is a funny thing. You can debate it, but in the end, it all comes down to what you believe. Debate rarely (if ever) changes your views.
  • Monotheistic religions view God as an authority who speaks through other authorities. My belief is that God should not be viewed as an authority but that which everyone may discover to be true, good, pure, love all those things that we deem as godly.

  • Em, I agree completely. Anyone who claims that God will damn those who've never even had a chance to know Him doesn't know jack from shit, to borrow an expression from a Catholic friend of mine.

    Here's my own personal theology, which ends in my answer to your problem with religions.

    God created the world, picked the Jews out of all the people in the world, and said "be good." That didn't quite work, so he had to send prophet after prophet after prophet.

    Eventually (from God's POV, probably on day seven), it became clear that the Jews weren't going to "get it" perfectly. So, He decided that once one Jew lived without sin, he would take that Jew and use her/him to bring about a perfect example. (Don't ask me how, but somehow I wound up accepting the "Immaculate Conception" line.)

    So, anyway, Jesus of Nazareth was born, with the Word of God (one third of the Big Man) as his soul. Jesus lived and grew up, innately without sin, and lived a life wherein he did nothing that no other human could not do--if they were only perfect. Even his death was not a detriment to his perfection, as all die, and many die cruelly--but Jesus set the tone of accepting your death and not losing your faith even in death.

    And that gets us to today. We've all got this shiney example of what a perfect life was like, although we have no flaming idea what he did that made his life perfect. (Humility was apparantly a part of it, we think.) Jesus ascended back into heaven, but because one third of God lived as a man, the remainder of God split in two to balance out Himself. God the Father works in creating things still, God the Holy Spirit works in protecting and inspiring mortals, and God the Christ works doing just what his name says, and saving people.

    Jesus decides, personally and individually, who gets into heaven and who doesn't. It doesn't matter to God where you end up--even the deepest pits of hell are, for His purposes, right by His side. It just matters to you--and you don't get into heaven unless God breaks the rules for you, because he loves you enough to make an exception and invite you over to his crib (which is, logically, the best place in all of Creation--I mean, if you were making a world, and had to make someplace to call your home, wouldn't YOU make it the best place in the world?)

    So, with all of that rambling: Jesus sees all men and women, at all points in their lives, and HE makes the decision as who to is damned and who is not--not some technical rule, not some mortal clergy, and not some semi-divine saintly judge. Thus, an illiterate heathen, an atheist who rejects the church, and a devout priest all have identical statistical chances of getting into heaven.

    (Not to say that it's random, but--well, that's another story, and this post is long enough already.)
  • He's working hard to get the other billions on the bandwagon. Why, just the other day, a couple of young men came to my door and offered me membership and salvation.

    I turned them down because I was a bit miffed (I thought it was the pizza delivery boy), but maybe some other time.

    Snarf, snarf.

  • Reminds me of a joke I heard.
    A man dies and gets to heaven where St. Peter greets him and takes him on a tour.
    They come to a long hall with many doors on each side.
    Peter explains to the man as they walk past each door that people of different religions are behind each one. There's the Catholics, Methodists, Buddists...
    They come up to a door with no markings and Peter tells the man to tip toe past quietly. The man asks if that's were God is. Peter says no, that's were the people who were just born again are and they think they're the only ones here. ;)
  • Let's extend the scenario. Instead of the African boy, let's consider the crib death victim dead at 2 weeks. This is no longer hypothetical, it has happened all too often. The infant could make no profession of faith, could not make pilgrimage to Mecca, has no say in the matter of absolution or last rites. Does it have a self? Parents say that it does; it operates on its own schedule; it pursues its "agenda" of growing, sleeping, and getting fed. But it cannot comprehend matters such as the Cross in the abstract. Other people cannot expect it to understand when they tell it of religious faith, because it doesn't really understand human language, only tone of voice. When it dies, where does the self go?

    A just but merciful creator (the kind that people worship and tithe to) cannot be just and yet punish created persons who are not made able to carry out that creator's demands. If a religious text, dogmatic consensus, or sacred saying explicitly makes it clear that all people must do something, then that something must be possible. In the case of the infant, it can do very little. An all-powerful creator cannot be bound by the physical laws we have observed to govern our existence and yet be considered all-powerful. So it follows that a creator who is all-powerful, just, and merciful would bypass the physical laws that govern our existence to make it possible for every mortal to meet that creator's demands. According to the Christian Bible, this happened several times, including on this [biola.edu] occasion. We know from historical record that these people believed this event so strongly that they were tortured to death instead of taking the easy way out and saying they had made it all up. To be considered just, a creator must make opportunities available to all, to this person [biola.edu], that one [biola.edu], the other [biola.edu], everyone [biola.edu]. So the person who believes in a all-powerful, just, and merciful creator must believe that creator still bypasses physical laws when necessary in order to make obedience possible [biola.edu]. Even to the infant crib death victim.

    Let me point out that while the existence of a semi-powerful or favoritist creator cannot be disproven, the market for the worship of said creator is dwindling, because people never knew what they were getting for going along with it ;-)
  • ...you ask for it, so I'd appreciate knowing how you feel about the last few comments that I have made.

    If you're going to be offended, then I may as well not write, because it takes me a long time, & I don't appreciate wasting it. I'm not saying that you are offended, or offensive.

    I'm just trying to figure out what you want. I don't usually get discussion from you, except for that "Saving Private Ryan" discussion.

    So, what did you think about that long comment about employing cheap labour overseas?
  • "If, for example, a young boy is born out in the middle of the African desert, and is raised to believe in the Goddess Shackalakalaka, will he too go to hell? He doesn't know any better. He was never "taught" that everything he believes and was raised is wrong. How could this occur?"

    It is my interpretation that people who have never known the word of God or have not been told about Jesus' will be judged differently than the people that know about God but refuse to believe or refuse to follow.

    I don't have a whole lot of time to look all of this up but a few examples:
    Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
    http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language =english&passage=Romans&version=NIV [biblegateway.com]

    There are also some parables in Matthew and Luke that go into more detail about this.

    Not that it means much to anyone except myself and God, but just for clarification, I consider myself a true born again Christian.
  • I think from my years of Sunday school and morning mass obligations when I was young I think I've been brainwashed in a few things(so i'm not really sure if I'm contributing anything insightful)...and after reading your question I started to wonder why it was any human's responsability to "save" everyone? Why are we (or the religious org'n) "damning" people to hell? I thought we weren't supposed to judge anyone, as eventually God would judge at the end of the world. I thought as one of the teachings... Christ taught his followers to love everyone and to spread love and peace?

    In regards to your situation about the people who never get to know anything, I don't think it really matters if they don't get shown anything or believe in God Shackalakalaka (cool name) I think most human societies (even ones that probably don't get to see much Western cultures) know what's right from wrong (killing another person is wrong...etc.), and I believe God will judge them accordingly.

    I agree with you about the people trying to force things down people's throats... i really dislike those people. But I do admire those who spread love and give/do wonderful things to those at disadvantage. I think most churches should start going back to those basics (spread love and hope) instead of trying to preach political issues like homophobia (god loved all people, so let them be), evolution (god created everything, probably evolution so just accept it), and stupid things that make people just argue and get angry... but people aren't perfect and they aren't reading slashdot journals anyways. :(.
    • I think most churches should start going back to those basics ... evolution ...

      Before anyone replies... no I don't know of any church that is pro-evolution. What I did mean was for the church and/or religious organizations from to stop getting into details (like anti evolution, anti abortion, anti stem life research, blahblahblah) and start doing the basics like promoting helping people and loving them like brothers and sisters...
  • Religion does not equal logic. Religions (aka Churches) do not want members to "think." Most churches preach and practice the "do not question" way of worship.

    Of course, I say bullshit and will be joining the other heathens in Hell. Oh well.
    • That is, to quote Samuel Clemens. I guess I will see you all there, unless there really is something to this "works" business, because goodness knows I can't rustle up the faith to believe in stuff that likely exists some days, never mind an invisible cloud being in the sky or somewhere. :)
  • being mystic (by mystic i mean that i believe that the connection to deity is personal), i believe everyone has to find their own path. people don't start from the same places with the same understanding or relation to things around them, so i find it difficult to believe that even if the goal is in fact the same, the road will also be the same. we all have different things to learn. religion is great for helping you to find the path. there may be one right way, but there are several ways that are still pretty good and will help people be decent to themselves and to each other.

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