Well this might not be for Mac users, Microsoft Project Siena might be a useful option for people on the Windows platform. http://www.microsoft.com/en-us...

You might want to look at TypeScript if you're already using Visual Studio. It infers types, type checks your code, is open source, and supports writing plain JavaScript. When using Visual Studio, you can do the things you're used to doing like "go to definition" and "find all references". If you decide to annotate your definitions with types, it can do type checking and catch errors which is really useful when you need to refactor a lot of code. The video at the bottom of http://www.typescriptlang.org/ is a really good tutorial. It compiles to JavaScript and accepts plain JavaScript so you can use it without having to rewrite all your code.

This just happened to me on Safari once I logged in (since my name is a little long). Also when I just clicked the "options" button below, and then closed it out it moved the page all the way to the top, leaving me to have to hunt for this comment box again...

The trouble is that in server workloads you generally don't see ONE LARGE I/O operation - lots of small ones instead. There are very very few server workloads that involve transferring >100MB data at a time (even when it comes to DB snapshoting).

There's lots of server workloads that involve large IO requests:

  - backups
  - DB startup/shutdown
  - DB traffic that generates or reads a lot of new data (say report generation)
  - HPC workloads that work with huge data sets
  - animation farms that work with huge images/movies
  - web servers streaming out big files
  - fsck
  - virtual desktop servers where the desktops are virtual instances running on the server. There any IO load within that 'desktop' runs on the server.

etc. As there is a fair number of server workloads that are IO heavy but which use small IO requests.

On the desktop this is common (all your AVI files).

If you have those big files in networked storage or if you are backing them up to some network host then you've already transformed those kinds of IO requests into big IO requests on the server side as well: the big file you read or write on the desktop the network file/backup server will read/write from its own disks, etc.

Really, "interactivity sucks during big IO" kind of bugs can hurt servers just as much as they can hurt desktops. The boundary between desktops and servers is very fluid.

Yeah, that's what the discussion was about - we improved that particular case, see this commit (which can be found in v2.6.36), and Phoronix reported about that upstream fix.

Thanks,

Ingo

There's also the VM fix from Wu Fengguang, included in v2.6.36, which addresses similar "slowdown while copying large amounts of data" bugs.

There were about a dozen kernel bugs causing similar symptoms, which we fixed over the course of several kernel releases. They were almost evenly spread out between filesystem code, the VM and the IO scheduler. And yes, i agree that it took too long to acknowledge and address them - these problems have been going on for several years. It's a serious kernel development process failure.

If anyone here still experiences bad desktop stalls while handling big files with v2.6.36 too then we'd appreciate a quick bug report sent to linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org.

Thanks,

Ingo

So I know some people may read this and think "haha, funny joke" but given that most users are extremely predictable regarding what programs they use and when and how they use them (same with web browsing), shouldnt it be possible to gather user activity over time and analyze it to help improve scheduling.

Yeah, that's certainly a possibility.

This is also the goal of most heuristics in the kernel: to figure out a hidden piece of information that the application (and user) has not passed to the kernel explicitly.

The problem comes when the kernel gets it wrong - the kernel and applications can easily get into a feedback loop / arms race of who knows how to trick the other one into doing what the app writer (or kernel writer) thinks is best. In such cases we get the worst of both worlds: we get the bad case and we get the cost of heuristics.

(Heuristic and predictive systems also tend to be complex and hard to analyze: you can rarely reproduce bugs without having the exact same filesystem layout and usage pattern as the user experienced, etc.)

What we found is that in terms of default behavior it's a bit better to keep things simple and predictable/deterministic and then give apps the way to inject extra information into the kernel. We have the fadvise/madvise calls which can be used with the POSIX_FADV_DONTNEED flag to drop cached content from the page cache.

Heuristics and predictive techniques are done when we can be reasonably sure that we get the decisions right: for example there's a piece of fairly advanced code in the Linux page cache trying to figure out whether to pre-fetch data or not.

The large file copy interactivity problems some have mentioned here were most likely real kernel bugs (in the filesystem, IO scheduling and VM subsystems) and were hopefully fixed in the v2.6.33 - v2.6.36 timeframe.

If you can still reproduce any such problems then please report them to linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org so we can fix it ASAP.

In any case, we could all be wrong about it, so if you have a good implementation of more aggressive predictive algorithms i'm sure a lot of people would try them out - me included. We kernel developers want a better desktop just as much as you want it.

I see that the bug entry you referred to contains measurements from early 2010, at which point Ubuntu was using v2.6.31-ish kernels IIRC. (and that's the kernel version that is being referred to in the bug entry as well.)

A lot of work has gone into this area in the past 1-2 years, and v2.6.33 is the first kernel version where you should see the improvements. Slashdot reported on that controversy as well.

If you can still reproduce interactivity problems during large file copies with CFQ on v2.6.36 (and it goes away when you switch the IO scheduler to deadline), please report it to linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org so that it can be fixed ASAP. (You can also mail me directly, i'll forward it to the right list and people.)

Thanks,

Ingo

Yes i agree with you that if a 45 msecs latency happens on every frame then that will snowball and will thoroughly ruin game interactivity - but note the specific context here:

you can see the commit referenced by Phoronix here

(hm, my first link above was broken, sorry about that.)

Those 45 msec delays were statistical-max outliners - with the average latency at 7.3 msecs. This got cut down to 25 msecs / 6.6 msecs respectively via the patch. Note that it's also a specific, CPU overloaded workload that was measured here, so not typical of the desktop unless you are a developer running make -j build jobs.

We care about optimizing maximum latencies because those are what can cause occasional hickups on the desktop - a lagging mouse pointer - or some other non-smooth visual artifact.

Thanks,

Ingo

It may also be kernel version dependent - with older kernels still showing this bug.

A lot of work has gone into the Linux kernel in the past 2 years to improve this area - and yes, i think much of the criticism from those who have met this bug and were annoyed by it was fundamentally justified - this bug was real and it should have been fixed sooner.

Kernels post v2.6.33 ought to be much better - with v2.6.36 bringing another set of improvements in this area. The fixes were all over the place: IO scheduler, VM and filesystem code and few of them were simple.

This Slashdot article from 1.5 years ago shows when more attention was raised to this category of Linux interactivity bugs.

Thanks,

Ingo

No, massive unfairness is just as bad on the server as it is on the desktop - in all but a few select batch processing situations.

Replace 'desktop' with 'database', 'Apache', 'Samba' or 'number crunching job' and you get the same kind of badness.

There's not much difference really. If it sucks on the desktop then it sucks on the server too: why would it be a good server if it slows down a DB/Apache/Samba/number-crunching-job while prioritizing some large copy operation?

You are right, deadline is the other (much smaller/simpler) one - CFQ is the main IO scheduler remaining.

You can still test AS by going back to an older kernel - and as long as it's a performance regression that is reported (relative to that old kernel, running AS), it should not be ignored on lkml.

Thanks,

Ingo

No need for O_DIRECT (which might not even work everywhere), /bin/cp could use fadvise/madvise with some size heuristics. (say if a file is larger than RAM and will be copied fully then it cannot be reasonably cached)

POSIX_FADV_DONTNEED should do the trick in terms of pagecache footprint - it will invalidate the page-cache.

Thanks,

Ingo