By way of introduction, I run a high-end software consultancy[1] and have spend a good proportion of the last few years trying to recruit really good CS grads.

My overwhelming impression is one of massive variability in quality of CS graduates, which bears no relation to the result they got. Hence, a CS degree (even a first class one) is out of step with the realities of real jobs. It seems that the really good candidates succeed partly in spite of their CS training, and the really bad ones use their degree to cover over the cracks in their abilities for as long as possible when in a real work situation. Often, hiring a CS grad is like hiring a baby: you have to run around cleaning up after then for ages. They don't really start learning how to code until they start working on their first job - they're really only at trainee level at that point.

I'm slowly forming the opinion that a full time CS degree with no industry experience is the wrong training for professional programmers. We don't train doctors or engineers like that! Give me anyone who's passionate about coding, regardless of experience and even to a certain extent regardless of talent: they can be turned into a great software craftsman over several years, if they have the right personal skills and motivation. What's actually important is: how organised are they? What's their attention to detail like? Can they get on with other people? These skills are learned in real work environments, not in a lecture hall.

An apprenticeship scheme, working on the job with a sponsoring company, and perhaps a part time CS degree for the theory would work better. This should be taken over about five years: true software craft is hard and most achieving a good level stumble their way there in the dark for about a decade before they really know what they're doing.

If CS grads were more like this, then maybe they'll actually be in demand.

[1] http://www.edendevelopment.co.uk/

... more like methane-spewing, drug-laced, engineered monstrosities - but I don't eat 'em (or other animals).

using a great circle route

Professionally, I use Capilano's DesignWorks schematic capture on a Mac (they also support Windows). They have demos and some educational deals . (I use MacSpice for analog simulation and Osmond for PCB layout.) HTH.

I don't think of myself as an Apple fanboy, but I have bought lots of Macs over the years (starting with a Lisa 2 with MacWorks waaay back in 1984 - I'm old, too). I tend to like most of Apple's products, but the app store sucks, at least for developers.

First of all, you have to submit your app and wait an indeterminate amount of time (usually a week) for it to be approved presumably by some semi-trained monkey-boy. Then there's the whole release date fiasco that costs you sales unless you know about it.

But the worst part, is the freakin' rating system: rate-on-delete? YGTBFKM! And the ratings show up in the 'App store' app, but not in iTunes? And your competitors come along and give you the lowest rating and you have no recourse. Or the luser who didn't read the app description - it's enough to make a BOFH's head explode! I mean, my calculator app may not be great, but it's not crap. http://ghostwood.org/software/ (sorry about the shameless self-promotion).

Anyway, I understand where Trent's coming from - which, come to think of it, is a scary thought.

I wrote code (bug fixes) on the production floor of a tire factory in Charlotte NC in the Summer. Horrible in so many ways.

Wow, I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

Note that I was talking about industrial automation, not automobiles. For example, in the ODVA world, DeviceNet (which is based on CAN) is fading in favor of Ethernet/IP.

It's pretty hard to argue with the performance and cost of Ethernet versus the "older" stuff. At least in industrial automation - I don't know much about automobiles.

FWIW, the automation in my place is done via Ethernet using http://driveweb.com/.

Yeah, but this does compass direction too... not sure the GPS can do compass direction to any degree of accuracy without movement.