We didn't need to rely on the rest of the world to get rid of segregation. And it was pretty hard to argue it wasn't wrong.

On the ozone layer. It was provable. It wasn't going to change anyone's way of life to correct. We also had a lot more sway in the world back then - back when the UN was something besides a soapbox for third world dictators.

On people taking responsibility...have you looked around lately? The latest generation, for the most part, doesn't believe in personal responsibility - and whining is pretty much second nature when they don't get their way.

You say fatalism. I say realism. I would love to think we could come together. There's absolutely nothing around the US that makes me think that is remotely possible. We are more divided now than we have ever been. I fully expect to get modded down (as usual) because most people aren't interested in a discussion with someone that doesn't agree with them (btw, thank you for a reasonable response to my post) - we don't like what you are saying, so we'll just not listen/hide/suppress it.

And understand - I WANT a solution. Again, to my point - I don't need to believe in climate change to recognize we are headed to a cliff. There's research that suggest we could meet the Paris Climate accords and would have next to no effect on anything. We need realistic solutions - not carbon credits.

For what it's worth, I hope you are 100% right and I"m 100% wrong.

Flamebait, really? This is why this conversation is pointless. You guys aren't interested in HAVING a conversation. Don't like what I said, mod it down. Knock yourself out.

'because that's the real key to reducing the political hysteria, and to bringing sanity into the discussion.'

Wrong. Well not wrong, but extreme wishful thinking.

This, to me, is the crux of the problem. I'm not interested at this point in arguing about whether climate change is true. It's a silly point. Pollution is bad. That is sufficient reason.

The reality is if everyone said 'ok, we believe you', nothing would happen that mattered. You think China is going to do anything besides pay lip service? You think Russia is even going to bother with lip service? Are we going to send more money to dictators in Africa because we're polluting? Oh, right, the people will rise up and demand it - because there is sooooo much sanity from the right and left now.

This is a classic problem of people thinking everyone is 'reasonable' and would see 'I'm right' if they would just stop and talk to me. The world doesn't work that way. Never has. But there is always a segment of the population that thinks it does and/or doesn't want to make hard choices and eventually gets us into some deep doo-doo.

So the real problem right now is...there is no solution. Nothing even remotely viable. As I've said before, I'm not going to sit around in the dark to stop climate change.

Show me a solution that doesn't put us back into the dark ages and I'm with you whether I believe in climate change or not.

What I will not do:

- Hand over money to third world countries/Al Gore for guilt pollution
- Accept rolling brown outs because while embracing the science of climate change, those same groups that refuse to accept the science of nuclear power
- Accept rolling brown outs because of attempts to force us to use power alternatives that ARE NOT READY. They want to stop building coal plants, won't allow nuclear plants but the fact is that solar/wind/water isn't there yet. The battery infrastructure (and the nastiness they represent) is not even close to being there nor is their ability to actually deliver sufficient solar power. Unlike CA playing shell games with other states, we don't get to siphon energy from other countries and claim we're using mostly renewable energy.
- Stop driving my car.
- Stop eating meat
- Have my power bill go through the roof while the government funds debacles. How many of those solar companies that Obama dumped all that money into are still around?

Is the climate changing? Sure Is. Are WE causing it? We don't know. Can we even have an affect on it? We don't know,

I'm just not going to sit around in the dark eating soy.

Your logic is a bit flawed. Once they do the initial investment to get it rolling - which no doubt the minimum wage being jacked up helped, but it was coming anyway - the overall cost declines. There's always an investment hump with these things, but NOW we can buy 10x more and get a discount......suddenly it at least breaks even on the low min wage states. And you know it's going to get raised there too, sooner or later. All about strategic planning.

Ummm...because it is MY FREAKING MONEY. People..the question is NEVER 'why should you keep your money?' The question is 'WHY should the Government take it?'. If you give the F-ing congress, Liberal or Conservative more money, they will spend it. They have taken in RECORD taxes for all or most of the last 10 years...and yet they spend WAY more than they get. No one cares. But HOLY CRAP, gas prices went up .25 - Now I'm pissed. The problem is that most people are stupid.

I would add this was coming either way. It was simply a matter of time. All they have done is accelerate it. The bottom line is, as history has proven time and time again, bottom rung jobs are going to get automated. Flipping burgers isn't a career choice.

Yeah...well.l.....it's surprising how you can _cause_ an accident without being legally liable. My ex-wife's mother was in 3 accidents. None of them _technically_ her fault. But...if you drove with her...omfg. She slows down for green lights (because they might turn yellow). She brakes hard at yellow lights. She slowly cuts you off. All three times she got hit and it wasn't her fault - but I would argue that she caused the accidents due to driving 'paranoid'. So yeah I hear you but there is a little more to it.